Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Anna was Franziska]

As she wasn´t Anastasia it was most definitely "received knowledge"....

Exactly. That is the whole point. It really doesn't matter what she said or who backed her up, it doesn't compare to the DNA and the fact that all the bones have been found and all claimants are false. Until Chat can prove that the intestines, hair, and bone fragments were all faked, he has no case.

 

[ChatNoir]

I think I'll leave the burden of proof on you.......

 

[Menarue]

Easy way out Chat!

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I have, multiple times here and elsewhere, as well as in private, matched quotes, pages, and info with him to counteract what he says. It's all in this thread, and on my site, too, and I'm not starting over for his amusement, or anyone else's.

The 'burden of proof' is on whomever claims that AA is AN, because she has been proven not to be in several DNA tests that were all repeated by multiple labs. Those who claim she was need to explain why the scientific proof does not count, or is somehow trumped by decades old he said this, she said that (which is already contradicted by he said she saids from the other side) We have our answer, she's not AN. This is THE 'fact.'

It's not enough to just say something 'must' have happened because 'she was no Polish factory worker'- PROVE it, or stop playing games.

 

[ChatNoir]

In speaking of things AA knew, she told Frau Rathlef Keilmann in 1925 about the IF's visit to Riga, and gave several details correctly. They were confirmed two years later in Sophie Buxhoeveden's book. She was definitely ahead of her time, that woman.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

The account of the visit to Riga was already published in Anna Vyrubova's "Memories of the Russian Court" in 1923:

Memories of the Russian Court - an online book on Romanov Russia - Chapter V

 

[ChatNoir]

All good and well, but none of the details are revealed here.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Then what were they? List them.

Sorry Chat, but a great deal of what she got was from books, and the rest came from individuals. AA was not AN, she did not live AN's life.

The Rathlef era is very suspicious. It's when her claim really took on a new life wtih so many more details. It's obvious this woman helped her a lot, such as honing the several wild versions of her 'escape' story into one 'believable' enough for the public.

 

[ChatNoir]

Of course you find anybody suspicious who believed in AA, they are the flies in your ointment. But the only thing Frau Rathlef Keilmann did, was to take notes of everything the young lady said and then published it, much to the chagrin of AA, who really should have been delighted if she were an impostor. Frau Rathlef Keilmann could, of course, not tell facts from fiction, she just reported what AA said and did. Some of it she got verified from Gilliard before he made his sudden turnaround, and some of it was verified by later books.
As for the visit to Riga, we have all been through it already. And if you have already forgotten it, just go back in the thread, and you will find it.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Does this mean you do admit you've said the same things and asked the same questions in this thread that it's time to 'go back and look in the thread' instead of rehashing? Will you respect that next time I say it?

The thing AA mentioned that was not in Anna's account was the roller skating, as as we all know, the pictures and videos of the roller skating on the yacht are well known and publicized.

Did you ever consider a reason AA did not want the stories published is because AA KNEW she was not AN and she was afraid of it coming out the more she pressed her luck? (since it all came from others, since she wasn't AN and she knew it) That is the main underlying thing here, she wasn't AN, therefore she wasn't there and her info came from elsewhere. Some of it we can track down, other stuff we have to know came from people. Still more may even be invented. I would really like to know who all was involved in her research and coaching!

 

[ChatNoir]

Does this mean you do admit you've said the same things and asked the same questions in this thread that it's time to 'go back and look in the thread' instead of rehashing? Will you respect that next time I say it?

Simply showing you that some things she could not have read in books. Infuriating, isn't it.

The thing AA mentioned that was not in Anna's account was the roller skating, as as we all know, the pictures and videos of the roller skating on the yacht are well known and publicized.

Yes, I am sure everybody can see that those videos and pictures were taken in Riga.
What AA points out, is that her mother was not taking part in anything ashore, but stayed onboard the Standart. AA also names the house where the big banquet took place, although she did not get the name quite right. This is also confirmed by Buxhoeveden 2 years later.

Did you ever consider a reason AA did not want the stories published is because AA KNEW she was not AN and she was afraid of it coming out the more she pressed her luck? (since it all came from others, since she wasn't AN and she knew it)

No, that never occurred to me. I thought it was because royals were never fond of airing their private lives.

That is the main underlying thing here, she wasn't AN, therefore she wasn't there and her info came from elsewhere.

Such as?

Some of it we can track down, other stuff we have to know came from people. Still more may even be invented. I would really like to know who all was involved in her research and coaching!

So would I. Keep researching.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Simply showing you that some things she could not have read in books. Infuriating, isn't it.

Nope, it only shows you that every single word cannot be traced to a book, because some of it came from the mouths of people she met in person! Some of it may still be in books I haven't found yet. The more I read the more I find and the more convinced I am she's a fraud.

Anyone who sailed on it would have known the details. You said yourself the wife of the yacht captain was a supporter of AA. You have to understand something about me, Chat. I DO NOT believe in AA, therefore I know that everything has its logical explaination, whether or not we can find it. I have found way more in the last year than I've ever found in my life, and I'm still looking.

Yes, I am sure everybody can see that those videos and pictures were taken in Riga.

It doesn't matter where they were taken, they show roller skating on the yacht.

What AA points out, is that her mother was not taking part in anything ashore, but stayed onboard the Standart.

This is in Anna's book:

[SIZE=-1]The sea that day was very rough and by the time we reached our destination the Empress was so prostrated that she could not go ashore.[/SIZE]

AA also names the house where the big banquet took place, although she did not get the name quite right. This is also confirmed by Buxhoeveden 2 years later.

"Confirmed?" Don't you know, if Sophie knew it, others did too? Probably even the BOTKINS? There were other people who knew these stories and details. Considering the amount of emigres' she met, she had to have gathered quite a bit.

No, that never occurred to me. I thought it was because royals were never fond of airing their private lives.

No they didn't, but that works to AA's DISadvantage, since there were few people who would be able to even verify if what she said was true or not! However, much of what she said was not all that private, and stuff that many around them would have known.

 

[ChatNoir]

Nope, it only shows you that every single word cannot be traced to a book, because some of it came from the mouths of people she met in person!

And which people would these be?

Some of it may still be in books I haven't found yet. The more I read the more I find and the more convinced I am she's a fraud.

And let me tell you, there are quite a few books you haven't "found" yet!

Anyone who sailed on it would have known the details. You said yourself the wife of the yacht captain was a supporter of AA.

And where did I say that about the wife of the captain? The only time I mentioned captain Sablin, was that he was present when Anastasia got her finger damaged in a carriage door accident.

It doesn't matter where they were taken, they show roller skating on the yacht.

And that's it. No mention of when and where.

This is in Anna's book:

[SIZE=-1]The sea that day was very rough and by the time we reached our destination the Empress was so prostrated that she could not go ashore[/SIZE]

Yes. And not a word of what happened during the visit.

"Confirmed?" Don't you know, if Sophie knew it, others did too? Probably even the BOTKINS? There were other people who knew these stories and details. Considering the amount of emigres' she met, she had to have gathered quite a bit.

Yes, I am sure all the emigrees were on the Standart on the visit to Riga. And the Botkins did not meet AA till years after.

No they didn't, but that works to AA's DISadvantage, since there were few people who would be able to even verify if what she said was true or not!

Really? What about all those emigrees who read aloud to her and gave her all her memories?

However, much of what she said was not all that private, and stuff that many around them would have known.

As if you know a fraction of what she said.....

 

[Menarue]

No one has to be convinced she was a fraud. The dna has proved she is.
My aunt had a tiny budgerigah, very small little blue thing, it could recite the longest sentences on cue! Everyone was amazed by it. It is dead now so it can´t be studied to see how this could happen. Such a small brain but what a good memory, it wasn´t his memory though, he was just repeating words someone had taught him - in this case we know exactly who, my aunt.

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

I agree, Menarue. The dna proved her a fraud and she only repeated what people told her just like that bird. Though we may never find out what person told her which things, this does not mean it didn't happen and it's not anything for Anderson fans to hold onto as hope. All the tests have proven that all of the Imperial children died in 1918 and that Anna Anderson was not related to them. So that is the end of the line.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Yes, there is so much evidence that proves that AA was never Anastasia. It's very sad, that the romanovs were murdered, but it just isn't right to make up information about Anastasia, that is not true or extend AA's fraud stories.

 

[ChatNoir]

And who, may I ask, is making up information?

 

[COUNTESS]

Look science proved she was a fraud. Who knows who could have fed her the info, or, perhaps was she a servant who was privy to more info than we would know. I don't know. People can be taught anything. DNA does not lie. Just because you stand in a garage does not make you a car. She might have been in those palaces, but that doesn't make her the grand duchess.

 

[ChatNoir]

So far, nothing has been legally proven.

 

[Michael HR]

I think when I am a old man this argument will still rage. What we need is the DNA of four daughters showing that whilst they have similar DNA to each other it shows four females who are children of the Emperor and Empress were recovered from the two graves. Only by showing four separate DNA codes will this ever be settled. Siblings have similar DNA but not quite the same. DNA would prove my brother and I are related to each other and are children of my parents beyond doubt. Only this level of DNA testing will settle this argument one way or the other.

Michael

 

[Menarue]

Was there are fifth daughter to be murdered and buried with them? If not then the dna proves who they are.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Was there are fifth daughter to be murdered and buried with them? If not then the dna proves who they are.

Sigh, unfortunately, some do believe in a fifth daughter! A woman named Alexandra DeGraffe claimed to be a child born during Alexandra's 'false' pregancy in between Anastasia and Alexei- legend has it the royal couple were too ashamed to admit they'd produced another girl, and sent her to live in Denmark where a servant of one of the royal relatives adopted and raised her. Another account says Phillipe the mystic, who predicted Alexandra would have a boy, stole the girl at birth to hide his failure and gave her to a Dutch family. Yes, she and AA did meet, and at one time called each other 'sister.'

Seriously, though, I know what you're saying- four different female bodies have been found and all match Alexandra, which should be the end of any speculation. Sadly, there are a few people who have even claimed that the bone fragments found last year were taken from the mass grave instead, and were actually just parts of one of the other three bodies! This is totally unrealistic, since by the accounts of the Reds, they burned the two bodies first, and everything else was dumped in the mass grave. This means for anything from the mass grave to be in the burn pit someone would have had to intentionally take it out, burn it to match the burned bones, and rebury it in the burn pit. WHAT would be the purpose of that? It couldn't be to trick DNA researchers later, since at that time no one had any idea such a thing would ever exist. Also remember they were pressed for time and racing against sunup which is why they went ahead and buried the rest of the bodies, so it is illogical. Some people are just too desperate to believe AN (or Alexei) got away and keep coming up with wild theories. This is why NO amount of testing or DNA profiling of four separate girls will ever stop them. They don't accept the results now, and they'd also reject those, saying they were switched, bungled, tampered with, rigged, etc.

But I do disagree this will never end, it will. There are only a handful of about five or six people who believe these strange things, and eventually they will all die off. We just have to prevent them from recruiting any proteges' in the meantime.

 

[ChatNoir]

"....recruiting protegees...." My my, it is indeed a scary world out there!

 

[Russophile]

. Sadly, there are a few people who have even claimed that the bone fragments found last year were taken from the mass grave instead, and were actually just parts of one of the other three bodies!

I'm one of those skeptics and this is due to how Russia works, they are still hiding, sneaking, lying, obfuscating the whole thing, otherwise, when they said they were done, they would be done. But they're not done. So they're hiding something. What that is, I don't know.

 

[COUNTESS]

Russia does work that way, but why would there care a titter's damn about a woman who died 90 years ago and was nothing to begin with. She was a child when she died and other than curiosity, what difference does it make?

 

[Russophile]

Russia does work that way, but why would there care a titter's damn about a woman who died 90 years ago and was nothing to begin with. She was a child when she died and other than curiosity, what difference does it make?

That's what I"m trying to figure out. It must be something or they would have been all up front about things long before now. Crazy stuff. I'll be in a straight jacket over this before long. . . .

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

It is probably because of peoples' mistrust of Russia that the tests were repeated in laboratories of other countries including America and Austria. All got the same results. There is no need to hide anything about Anna Anderson since she is insignificant to Russia and always was. They knew she was not Anastasia because they knew they had killed the real one. In fact the Russians used to lie about the fact the daughters were dead. Ironically and unfortunately, the lies they left, such as the "Perm sightings", have only served to encourage those looking for survivors! Ultimately, Anderson is null and void because previous tests have already ruled her out as a Romanov.

 

[ChatNoir]

If they knew that they had killed the real Anastasia, why was Ekaterinburg plastered with posters after the murders, announcing that someone had gotten away with one or more of the family members? Why were Bolshevik soldiers stopping trains looking for Anastasia and Alexei?

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

If they knew that they had killed the real Anastasia, why was Ekaterinburg plastered with posters after the murders, announcing that someone had gotten away with one or more of the family members? Why were Bolshevik soldiers stopping trains looking for Anastasia and Alexei?

Is any of this even true, or just more legends? There is nothing in any official history accounts, all you have are some person's word for it. I don't believe it. Plastered with posters give me a break, they didn't even tell anyone the family was killed or missing, that is ridiculous!

 

[Elspeth]

Do we have a photo of these posters?