Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Anna was Franziska]

For Heaven's sake - no matter how small someone's knowlege of a language is, they can either speak SOME or NONE. Anastasia had actually studied it several times a week for some time before they were taken to Ekaterinburg, therefore she DID know some German. This is an indisputable FACT.

The FACT is that AN DID NOT SPEAK OR USE GERMAN in her real life. Taking lessons does not = useable knowledge. Those who knew them said 'they knew no German' or 'German was never used in the family.' This does NOT men they didn't take lessons, this means they don't speak it functionally. I know AA supporters like to use the lessons that 'technically' she 'may' have known German because that's the language AA used, but really, a real AN would have known the other three much better and would not have completely abandoned them all for one she barely knew and NEVER USED. (remember even the German relations spoke and wrote to the family in English, there were no Germans in Russia during WWII and they had no use for it)

If you were as knowledgeable as you claim to be, you would know that AA wasactually unable to express herself fluently in almost ANY language. Whoever she was, she definitely had head injuries and it is a well known fact that head injuries can affect the language centres of the brain.

Yes, due to the grenade explosion suffered when she was FS working in the factory.

When she lived in Germany, she spoke that language and her English was bad. When she got off the Berengaria in New York, she could speak fluent English - and please don't tell me that she had a crash course on the voyage.

I don't believe this. I think her supporters, who were the witnesses who claim that, bragged up her use of English. Clearly she never mastered it even after moving to the US and marrying an American- she had to have her husband translate for her! I have heard videos of her, 'dirt I was living'- this is what the writer in the quote I posted meant- the language structure is all wrong for someone who knew English first, before German. AA clearly knew German and knew it well before she ever touched English. This fits for FS but not AN.

Why would she speak any Romanian? Tthe Tchaikowsky family were not Rumanian, they were supposed to be Polish I believe. Also AA only went out twice during her whole time in Bucharest - one for the "wedding" and once for the funeral.

Considering she was never really in Romania because her entire 'escape' story is fiction, this is really insignificant.

The evidence of her speaking Russian does not just come from supporters, but also from independent people such as doctors etc before her claim to identify began. Everyone at Dalldorf thought she was Russian BEFORE she was "discovered".

Funny those stories didn't come out until after she was well known, we'll never know how much was really accurate. Also, as Klier and Mingay pointed out, it's very possible that the German staff, not knowing any or much of either language, mistook Polish for Russian.

Don't you think it's strange she wouldn't speak Russian with native Russian speakers, and people AN had known in her real life, like Olga A, Felix Y and Sophie B?

As I have pointed out elsewhere - and unfortunately don't have the sources to hand - language experts said that AA spoke English with EITHER a Russian or a German accent from a specific German province (not the Posen area where FS came from).

It's a German and Polish accent.

They also detected a slight Yorkshire accent whichis intriguing since Gibbes came from Yorkshire. I doubt very much if FS ever met anyone from Yorkshire.

I've heard this one before, and it's not 'intriguing' at all. I question who came up with that, probably someone who knew he was from Yorkshire and tried to help her. Besides, AN didn't learn English from Gibbes, she learned it from her parents and her British nanny. She didn't start taking lessons with Gibbes until she was about 7, after already speaking English since babyhood. In addtion to all this, you can listen to the tapes of AA speaking and hear NO signs of any English accent.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

If I'm remembering correctly, one of the judges, who spoke Russian, visited AA, because she refused to go to court, and interviewed her. When he left her he believed she did speak Russian.

Perhaps Chat can recall this better than I and has a source.

AGRBear

Yes she refused to come into court to prove it. She was interviewed and answered questions read to her in Russian in English, however, she never spoke Russian, or proved she could read or write it. This was in 1965, after she had many years to be coached by someone. (and that person had to have known English and Russian to have taught her to answer in English to Russian questions, who knows, she may even have been tipped off about the questions ahead of time) The fact is, AA never spoke, wrote or read Russian in court or in public to prove she was able, therefore, it's 'eminently likely' she wasn't. In Massie's book, he explained the frustration of the 1965 judge who even sang Russian songs trying to get her to respond; she never did.

Another thing I want to address is the double standard of AA and Russian. Sometimes supporters (even her husband as late as 1977 according to one witness) explained away her inability to speak Russian as because she was 'traumatized' or 'it was the last language heard in that house' before the murders. HOWEVER, this excuse is too often contradicted by supporters' claims that this or that person said she spoke Russian and sometimes even 'like a native'. So, which was it, did she use it or did she not speak it due to being traumatized?' If a person is 'traumatized' to the point of unlearning or refusing their own native language why would they sometimes speak it (but only around the 'right' people) and sometimes not? You can't be 'traumatized' sometimes and then other times be fine with it, then switch back and forth. This contradiction is very glaring.

 

[ChatNoir]

No, a person can know very little German and have it still not qualify as knowledge enough to make it useful.

When AA first surfaced in Berlin, she spoke very bad German with "a typical Russian accent." Franziska, however, spoke good German.

I know people who took it in high school and college and don't know enough to function minimally.

And I took it in high school and college and spoke it fluently.

The facts, yes, the facts are, that AN was raised bilingual in Russian and English, therefore those should have been two languages AA, if she were AN, knew well, yet, she didn't.

Yes, she did. See Erna Bucholz testimony in Hamburg. Also see protocols from Dalldorf. She would "rave in English under sedation", and Inspector Grünberg's nephew, Conrad Wahl, remembered the "sick lady as someone who spoke more English than German".

She learned French and had a live in French tutor, so she came to know it well. The official language of the court was French, so it was used often.

Gilliard was complaining that the Grand Duchesses did not speak French well, the only one who mastered it, was Alexei.

The one language that as not used often was German. This is proven by accounts and books of those who knew them. So there's really no point in arguing that because they technically took lessons they 'might' have known it well because the proof is there that they didn't. Some may say, but they had German relatives. Yes, but it's proven that all correspondence with them in person and via letter was in English, this included Ella, Ernie and even the Kaiser! So, not being exposed to German, they didn't know it like the other languages. This means it would not have been the language of choice, or best language, of any of the children should they turn up missing later.

And if you were running away from your enemies and ended up in Germany, what would you do? Probably speak German to try to blend in.

Those who met her in the 20's and denied her such as Yussoupov and Olga mentioned he choice of German and her inability to speak Russian, English or French as a big reason for their denial.

And later we found out that she used both Russian and English while at Mommsen.

Why would a person raised speaking three other languages suddenly, in a year and a half time, forget them and suddenly use the one she was least familiar with?

I think you forget here that the poor woman had forgotten more than languages, she could not even count past 10.

And what about Romanian, she allegedly lived there, yet didn't know it? Guess they forgot to cover that base in her invented escape story! When it comes donw to it, the only evidence of her speaking the other languages came from supporters. She was never able to prove it in public.

So she was supposed to learn Romanian in 12 months by living with her Russian/Polish rescuers and only getting out of the house a couple of times? And your friends could not even learn German from years of lessons at school.

The most glaring proof should be AA's horrible English, even years later, even after living in the US for years! Here are some other accounts:

It was not the English of someone who had spoken English since childhood as Anastasia did." said the English writer, Michael Thornton, when he met her in 1960. "The accent was Germanic, the sentence structure German, the grammar hopeless."

Dave Howey, who met Anderson, by then Mrs. Manahan, when he was a cadet at a Virginia military academy in 1977, wrote of their meeting that "Her husband talked for her since she spoke very little English. Her only functional language was German, her Russian having been wiped out, we were told, as a result of the trauma from seeing her family gunned down in the cellar of a house in Ekaterinburg, Russia."

According to Xenia, her English was good, but the grammar somewhat rusty. She went back to Germany in the late twenties and spent over 30 years there.

 

[ChatNoir]

The FACT is that AN DID NOT SPEAK OR USE GERMAN in her real life. Taking lessons does not = useable knowledge. Those who knew them said 'they knew no German' or 'German was never used in the family.' This does NOT men they didn't take lessons, this means they don't speak it functionally. I know AA supporters like to use the lessons that 'technically' she 'may' have known German because that's the language AA used, but really, a real AN would have known the other three much better and would not have completely abandoned them all for one she barely knew and NEVER USED. (remember even the German relations spoke and wrote to the family in English, there were no Germans in Russia during WWII and they had no use for it)

I took German lessons for 4 years at school. We did, of course, never use it at home. After 2 weeks in Germany, I spoke rather fluent German. So taking lessons DOES mean that one can obtain usable knowledge. I also took English lessons, and as you may have discovered, I also have a little knowledge of that language as well.

Yes, due to the grenade explosion suffered when she was FS working in the factory.

According to medical reports from the AEG factory and statements from her own family, FS received no wounds from the explosion at the factory.

I don't believe this. I think her supporters, who were the witnesses who claim that, bragged up her use of English. Clearly she never mastered it even after moving to the US and marrying an American- she had to have her husband translate for her! I have heard videos of her, 'dirt I was living'- this is what the writer in the quote I posted meant- the language structure is all wrong for someone who knew English first, before German. AA clearly knew German and knew it well before she ever touched English. This fits for FS but not AN.

AA spoke German very poorly. Othewise, see privious post.

Considering she was never really in Romania because her entire 'escape' story is fiction, this is really insignificant.

According to the witness Sarsha Gregorian, she crossed the Dniestr into Moldova on December 5, 1918.

Funny those stories didn't come out until after she was well known, we'll never know how much was really accurate. Also, as Klier and Mingay pointed out, it's very possible that the German staff, not knowing any or much of either language, mistook Polish for Russian.

Those stories were kept confidential by the nurses on request from the unknown patient. The only one who was informed, was Dr. Chemnitz. See his testimony from Hamburg.

Don't you think it's strange she wouldn't speak Russian with native Russian speakers, and people AN had known in her real life, like Olga A, Felix Y and Sophie B?

And Gleb Botkin. When she slipped into Russian, she would afterwards deny it and insist that she had spoken nothing but German.

I've heard this one before, and it's not 'intriguing' at all. I question who came up with that, probably someone who knew he was from Yorkshire and tried to help her. Besides, AN didn't learn English from Gibbes, she learned it from her parents and her British nanny. She didn't start taking lessons with Gibbes until she was about 7, after already speaking English since babyhood. In addtion to all this, you can listen to the tapes of AA speaking and hear NO signs of any English accent.

Gibbes was hired because the Grand Duchesses' English was "atrocious"

 

[ChatNoir]

Yes she refused to come into court to prove it.

She refused to have anything to do with the courts at all. In the beginning, she was not even agreeable to a lawsuit. Only when she heard that Grand Duchess Xenia was suing for tsarist property in Europe did she agree to go ahead.

She was interviewed and answered questions read to her in Russian in English, however, she never spoke Russian, or proved she could read or write it. This was in 1965, after she had many years to be coached by someone. (and that person had to have known English and Russian to have taught her to answer in English to Russian questions, who knows, she may even have been tipped off about the questions ahead of time) The fact is, AA never spoke, wrote or read Russian in court or in public to prove she was able, therefore, it's 'eminently likely' she wasn't. In Massie's book, he explained the frustration of the 1965 judge who even sang Russian songs trying to get her to respond; she never did.

See Fallows notes about how AA spoke fluent Russian with Dr. Rudnev and Albert Coyle.

Another thing I want to address is the double standard of AA and Russian. Sometimes supporters (even her husband as late as 1977 according to one witness) explained away her inability to speak Russian as because she was 'traumatized' or 'it was the last language heard in that house' before the murders. HOWEVER, this excuse is too often contradicted by supporters' claims that this or that person said she spoke Russian and sometimes even 'like a native'. So, which was it, did she use it or did she not speak it due to being traumatized?' If a person is 'traumatized' to the point of unlearning or refusing their own native language why would they sometimes speak it (but only around the 'right' people) and sometimes not? You can't be 'traumatized' sometimes and then other times be fine with it, then switch back and forth. This contradiction is very glaring.

She apparently knew Russian perfectly well and demonstrated it on countless occasions. But when made aware of it, she clammed up and insisted that she could not understand, nor speak it. Only in 1938 when she had a really good mental period and felt happy, she opened up and spoke it freely. (See above)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

When AA first surfaced in Berlin, she spoke very bad German with "a typical Russian accent." Franziska, however, spoke good German.

Who said that, and might they have mistaken Polish for Russian.

And I took it in high school and college and spoke it fluently.

Good for you. This doesn't apply to anyone else.

Yes, she did. See Erna Bucholz testimony in Hamburg. Also see protocols from Dalldorf. She would "rave in English under sedation", and Inspector Grünberg's nephew, Conrad Wahl, remembered the "sick lady as someone who spoke more English than German".

As I said, all these reports come from supporters. Grunberg was one of her most ardent early supporters. The nurses we may always wonder if they knew the difference between languages, or if they were trying to help her.

Gilliard was complaining that the Grand Duchesses did not speak French well, the only one who mastered it, was Alexei.

But, you say he's a liar.

And if you were running away from your enemies and ended up in Germany, what would you do? Probably speak German to try to blend in.

But why not speak it to native Russian speakers you'd known in your real ife such as Olga A., Felix Y, and Sophie B?

And later we found out that she used both Russian and English while at Mommsen.

According to supporters. Again, was she traumatized out of Russian or not?

I think you forget here that the poor woman had forgotten more than languages, she could not even count past 10.

Then why would she suddenly remember the language she knew least?

According to Xenia, her English was good, but the grammar somewhat rusty. She went back to Germany in the late twenties and spent over 30 years there.

We will never know what really happened there, and how long she may have been coached before coming to the US. All I know is, in every tape and video I've ever seen of her, her English was pathetic.

I also took English lessons, and as you may have discovered, I also have a little knowledge of that language as well.

Well considering you're an American, I'm not surprised (and I know you're really an American and so do you )

According to medical reports from the AEG factory and statements from her own family, FS received no wounds from the explosion at the factory.

The family knew better, they were covering for her as they did with it all.

As for the records WHERE are they? One person claimed to have them, when I asked that person for proof they became angry but never produced them. I don't believe they exist, especially not after all these years and 2 world wars devastating Berlin and never being found during the trial. I am most skeptical. Massie's book and several other reliable sources state clearly FS was injured in the grenade factory, and suffered severe head injuries. The man next to her was pulverized before her eyes, you mean to say she didn't even get any schrapnel? It's been well documented for years she was hurt in the explosion, and you cannot prove otherwise.

AA spoke German very poorly.

Yet clearly it was her most comfortable, usable and favorite language to use.

According to the witness Sarsha Gregorian, she crossed the Dniestr into Moldova on December 5, 1918.

Who is this person? Are they aware that it's over 2000 miles from Ekaterinburg to Romania, and taking a cart on muddy back paths would have taken much longer. Don't forget the long and early winter, and the terrain they'd encounter along the way. See my website for more on just how unrealistic the alleged trip really was.

Dec. 5, 1918 was also the date she originally gave for the birth of her baby, meaning she would have had to have been pregnant well before July (and miraculously not miscarring during the execution and bumpy cart ride!) Of course now supporters like to change the dates, but it's well documented she said the baby was born that date and baptized a Catholic in Jan. 1919.

Those stories were kept confidential by the nurses on request from the unknown patient. The only one who was informed, was Dr. Chemnitz. See his testimony from Hamburg.

And Gleb Botkin. When she slipped into Russian, she would afterwards deny it and insist that she had spoken nothing but German.

Well you know what I think of the credibility of these people so let's not go there.

Gibbes was hired because the Grand Duchesses' English was "atrocious"

This was not because they didn't know English it was because they were speaking with Scottish dialect due to their nanny (from what I've read) It's not unusual to have a tutor for a language you already know, they also had a Russian tutor. It's well documented by those who knew them they spoke both English and Russian since babyhood.

 

[lexi4]

Annie,
You point our several times in the above post things that you say are well documented. Could you kindly refer me to the documentation?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

She refused to have anything to do with the courts at all. In the beginning, she was not even agreeable to a lawsuit.

I imagine she must have been very afraid of being caught in her lie.

Only when she heard that Grand Duchess Xenia was suing for tsarist property in Europe did she agree to go ahead.

There is no denying it was about money. You may say it was her 'identity' but wouldn't an identity as AN get you the money? Same thing.

See Fallows notes about how AA spoke fluent Russian with Dr. Rudnev and Albert Coyle.

Rudnev was a backer. Not sure who the other guy was. Where are Fallows' notes, I heard his daughter wouldn't let them be published because the case 'killed' her father. Fallows was in on Grandanor with Gleb, and supported his sending of the rude letters, and Fallows himself actually wrote to Hitler trying to get support for AA's cause. So that's his rap sheet.

She apparently knew Russian perfectly well and demonstrated it on countless occasions. But when made aware of it, she clammed up and insisted that she could not understand, nor speak it. Only in 1938 when she had a really good mental period and felt happy, she opened up and spoke it freely. (See above)

Again, supporters, there is no evidence of these 'countless occasions' other than word of mouth from supporters. She NEVER proved in public or in court she was able to speak, read or write Russian. The contradiction on whether or not she was 'traumatized' still makes no sense.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Annie,
You point our several times in the above post things that you say are well documented. Could you kindly refer me to the documentation?

Name the specific things and I'll try to find it. I'm sure you've read the same books I have, and know what I'm talking about.

 

[lexi4]

Ok. Other than Massie, which I have read, where is there other documentation of FS's wounds from the explosion?
What documents are there that confirm Fallows letters to Hitler? Any documentation about his daughter prohibiting his notes from being published and her reasons?

 

[ChatNoir]

Who said that, and might they have mistaken Polish for Russian.

Again, Nurse Malinovsky spoke Polish to AA, and the latter did not respond. Nurse Bucholz, who had been a language teacher in RUSSIA, testified that AA spoke Russian like a native. Apparently even then, it was difficult to get her to use it.

Good for you. This doesn't apply to anyone else.

And how do you know this?

As I said, all these reports come from supporters. Grunberg was one of her most ardent early supporters. The nurses we may always wonder if they knew the difference between languages, or if they were trying to help her.

I don't think we can talk of supporters here, there was no sure identification made, and even Grünberg could not say who she was. He ended up throwing her out on her ear due to her stubbornness. And Conrad Wahl was only a bystander. As for the nurses not understanding the difference between Polish and Russian, that's " a line that would get lots of laughter in Berlin."

But, you say he's a liar.

Yes, after January, 1927, when he started his campaign against AA, he was caught in a lot of lies.

But why not speak it to native Russian speakers you'd known in your real ife such as Olga A., Felix Y, and Sophie B?

See my previous answer.

According to supporters. Again, was she traumatized out of Russian or not?

Traumatized she was, there is no doubt about that. She definitely suffered from a persecution complex, and in using Russian, she would disclose to the world who she was.

Then why would she suddenly remember the language she knew least?

A survival instinct? Trying to blend in.

We will never know what really happened there, and how long she may have been coached before coming to the US. All I know is, in every tape and video I've ever seen of her, her English was pathetic.

I think we very well know what happened here.

Well considering you're an American, I'm not surprised (and I know you're really an American and so do you )

I am not an American.

The family knew better, they were covering for her as they did with it all.

Covering for what? They were coaxed by Knopf to help along as much as possible, but Felix and Gertrude both denied any scars on FS's body.

As for the records WHERE are they? One person claimed to have them, when I asked that person for proof they became angry but never produced them. I don't believe they exist, especially not after all these years and 2 world wars devastating Berlin and never being found during the trial. I am most skeptical. Massie's book and several other reliable sources state clearly FS was injured in the grenade factory, and suffered severe head injuries. The man next to her was pulverized before her eyes, you mean to say she didn't even get any schrapnel? It's been well documented for years she was hurt in the explosion, and you cannot prove otherwise.

FS being hurt at the factory has never been well documented, only assumed.

Yet clearly it was her most comfortable, usable and favorite language to use.

Most convenient, I think, since she was in Germany.

Who is this person? Are they aware that it's over 2000 miles from Ekaterinburg to Romania, and taking a cart on muddy back paths would have taken much longer. Don't forget the long and early winter, and the terrain they'd encounter along the way. See my website for more on just how unrealistic the alleged trip really was.

Sarsha Gregorian was a worker at a monastery in Jassy who with his family fled Russia in 1918. He helped AA and her company (minus Alexander, who had traveled ahead) to cross the Dniestr on 12/05/1918. He was later, in May, paid 5000 lei for his assistance.
As for the trip, remember that they had a horse to draw the cart. Or the carts. According to AA the horses wore out and the carts broke down along the way, and they had to buy new ones. Something that was made possible from the sale of her jewels.

Dec. 5, 1918 was also the date she originally gave for the birth of her baby, meaning she would have had to have been pregnant well before July (and miraculously not miscarring during the execution and bumpy cart ride!) Of course now supporters like to change the dates, but it's well documented she said the baby was born that date and baptized a Catholic in Jan. 1919.

She did not originally give the date of 12/5/1918 as the birth of her boy, it was Baron Arthur von Kleist who gave that date. AA later complained bitterly about "the baron and his lies."

Well you know what I think of the credibility of these people so let's not go there.

Please give me an example of their lack of credibility.

This was not because they didn't know English it was because they were speaking with Scottish dialect due to their nanny (from what I've read) It's not unusual to have a tutor for a language you already know, they also had a Russian tutor. It's well documented by those who knew them they spoke both English and Russian since babyhood.

No doubt about that.

 

[ChatNoir]

I imagine she must have been very afraid of being caught in her lie.

In her opinion, she was above the courts, "because my father created them."

There is no denying it was about money. You may say it was her 'identity' but wouldn't an identity as AN get you the money? Same thing.

She herself did not care about the money, all she wanted, was for her family not to get it because of the way they had treated her.

Rudnev was a backer. Not sure who the other guy was. Where are Fallows' notes, I heard his daughter wouldn't let them be published because the case 'killed' her father. Fallows was in on Grandanor with Gleb, and supported his sending of the rude letters, and Fallows himself actually wrote to Hitler trying to get support for AA's cause. So that's his rap sheet.

Fallows notes are at the Houghton Library. There was no question about getting them published. What his daughter did, however, was to deny the lawyers in Germany to have them. Her father was never paid, and she held his papers more or less as ransom. Fallows was the instigator of Grandanor, Gleb had nothing to do with it. Please do not refer to this again unless you have proof that Gleb was in on it.

Again, supporters, there is no evidence of these 'countless occasions' other than word of mouth from supporters. She NEVER proved in public or in court she was able to speak, read or write Russian. The contradiction on whether or not she was 'traumatized' still makes no sense.

Word of mouth? What about a letter from the Russian writer Urvantsov to Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann where he states that AA spoke the most pure and correct Russian to him at church. What about the Duke of Leuchtenberg, who got the report from the priest at Seeon that AA had done the riutals in Russian and was very much acquainted with the orthodox rites.
What about Olga of Leuchtenberg who was surprised when AA came over to her after the Easter party and thanked her in fluent Russian. What about Bucholz testimony in Hamburg? What about Gilliard's testimony in Hamburg when he had to admit that AA spoke Russian to Shura? What about Nina Chavchavadze who said: "It is not true that she can not speak Russian"? What about Mrs. Derfelden who, on her walks in the garden heard AA "name all the flowers by their quaint Russian names"? What about Xenia Leeds who heard AA speaking Russian with her birds? What about Madame Meller who complimented AA on her reverting to Russian and made AA deny ever having spoken Russian?

 

[lexi4]

So the Fallow notes are accessible. That is a far cry from not being published.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Again, Nurse Malinovsky spoke Polish to AA, and the latter did not respond. Nurse Bucholz, who had been a language teacher in RUSSIA, testified that AA spoke Russian like a native. Apparently even then, it was difficult to get her to use it.

Oh, the same nurse who lied about the date and then blamed it on the newspaper? I never heard of the other one. You drop a lot of names and assume everything they say is true but we'll never know enough about the person to know what really happened.

As for the nurses not understanding the difference between Polish and Russian, that's " a line that would get lots of laughter in Berlin."

Says who?

If Grunberg threw her 'out on her ear' as you say perhaps he realized she was a fake.

Yes, after January, 1927, when he started his campaign against AA, he was caught in a lot of lies.

What campaign? You mean ID'ing her as FS, her true identity? Please, spare me the Uncle Ernie stuff again, I have answered it no less than 2 maybe 3 times in this thread alone.

Traumatized she was, there is no doubt about that. She definitely suffered from a persecution complex, and in using Russian, she would disclose to the world who she was.

A survival instinct? Trying to blend in.

Excuses and speculation that really don't make any sense at all. Really the way aa supporters go to great lengths to give AN German skills she never had just to excuse why AA used it is far fetched, and there's really no need to argue it anymore.

I am not an American.

Ahem. I'm afraid I'd have to get too personal to respond to this and the mods would be upset with me.

Covering for what? They were coaxed by Knopf to help along as much as possible, but Felix and Gertrude both denied any scars on FS's body.

You seem to believe Knopf was lying and setting her up. I don't.

Again with the relatives, we've been through their reasons to deny her. Besides in those days with the clothing styles the way they were who could see scars? And brothers don't normally see their sisters naked (and they hadn't seen her for a long time) But I stick to my theory they were denying her.

FS being hurt at the factory has never been well documented, only assumed.

No, it was in the notes of Berenberg-Gossler and other anti-AA attorneys, but sadly most of those who write books about AA are more interested in supporting her claim rather than giving the other side, therefore such things go unpublicized. Massie used them as have other books. As Berenberg Gossler said, during the trials, the press was only interested in her side so the editors withdrew their reporters before the anti- aa side was told. This led directly to the lopsided documented 'evidence' we have today, meaning AA supporters can always put a page number to things and those against her claim cannot. BG was going to write it all in his memoirs but sadly passed away before he was finished. I hope someday someone will put them out for us to see.

The detective who pronounced her as FS had them too, it was part of the investigation.

So you cannot provide the alleged records that supposedly say she wasn't hurt, I didn't think so, they don't exist.

Most convenient, I think, since she was in Germany.

Again, excuses. There's no reason she wouldn't speak Russian to Russians if she knew it.

Sarsha Gregorian was a worker at a monastery in Jassy who with his family fled Russia in 1918. He helped AA and her company (minus Alexander, who had traveled ahead) to cross the Dniestr on 12/05/1918. He was later, in May, paid 5000 lei for his assistance.

As for the trip, remember that they had a horse to draw the cart. Or the carts. According to AA the horses wore out and the carts broke down along the way, and they had to buy new ones. Something that was made possible from the sale of her jewels.

The kindest thing I can say is that this is absolute fiction. I read another version where when he got killed he had gone out to sell her jewels; she had them until then. She and her supporters couldn't even stick to one version of this fairy tale.

Here is AA's original statement:

I arrived in Bucharest at the end of 1918. I got married to Alexander Tschaikovski, January 18, 1919, according to the Catholic rite, in a Catholic church situated not far from the place and house where I lived in Bucharest. I do not remember the name of the church or the name of the priest who married us.

Before my marriage, I converted to Catholicism, but now I want to again return to the Orthodox church. December 5, 1918, I had a son who was baptized according to the Catholic rite by the same priest who married us.

My name was listed as Anna Romanska (sic); on the marriage certificate which was in possession of my husband. My son was baptized in January 1919; I do not remember the date. He was given the name Alexis.

In August 1919, my husband, Alexander Tschaiikovski was injured on a street in Bucharest having been shot, and died three days later. He was buried in a Catholic cemetery in Bucharest. (Signed) Baron Kleist ]

She did not originally give the date of 12/5/1918 as the birth of her boy, it was Baron Arthur von Kleist who gave that date. AA later complained bitterly about "the baron and his lies."

Again, they couldn't get their facts straight, because nothing in the story was a fact. Any cop will tell you the first sign of a guilty liar is changing the story multiple times.

Please give me an example of their lack of credibility.

Why bother?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

In her opinion, she was above the courts, "because my father created them."

Oh my All I can say is, a likely story.

She herself did not care about the money, all she wanted, was for her family not to get it because of the way they had treated her.

What way did they treat her? Denying she was AN when she wasn't? They weren't her family.

Fallows notes are at the Houghton Library.

Oh that's real accessible for us!

There was no question about getting them published. What his daughter did, however, was to deny the lawyers in Germany to have them. Her father was never paid, and she held his papers more or less as ransom.

Could it be they may have been incriminating to AA's case, or his memory?

Fallows was the instigator of Grandanor, Gleb had nothing to do with it. Please do not refer to this again unless you have proof that Gleb was in on it.

I have, you deny it

Translated version of http://www.botkine.com/FAMILLE/HISTOIRE/index.php?t1=Histoire&t2=&r=TEXTES/gleb.php

It's also in books, I don't have page numbers handy now. Of course Fallows officially started it, being the attorney, however this doesn't absolve Gleb of his direct involvement to it and its purposes.

Word of mouth?

Yes, word of mouth from supporters. I knew all this that's why I said what i did.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Ok. Other than Massie, which I have read, where is there other documentation of FS's wounds from the explosion?

I believe, but don't have the records of course, this originally discovered by the investigation of the detective who identified AA as FS. They're also in the papers of Dr. Berenberg- Gossler, an opposing attorney in the AA case (much of what Massie quotes in "Final Chapter" came from BG's records and memoirs, BG had planned to publish them but passed away before he could finish them.)

What documents are there that confirm Fallows letters to Hitler?

I don't have the books handy because they were only from the library. I believe it was Massie's Final Chapter and Frances Welch's Romanov Fantasy.(the daughter stuff too)


In 1935, Fallows sunk so low as to appeal to Adolf Hitler for help in getting Anderson's claim recognized! He snuggled up to Hitler with terms such as "Honorable" and "Esteemed Sir" and used hateful anti-semitic remarks about the Bolsheviks who had killed "Anastasia's" family. It was all for nothing, as Fallows never heard back from Der Fuhrer.

 

[ChatNoir]

Oh, the same nurse who lied about the date and then blamed it on the newspaper? I never heard of the other one. You drop a lot of names and assume everything they say is true but we'll never know enough about the person to know what really happened.

No, the nurse did not lie about the date, the Nachtausgabe did, or they made an honest mistake. But in any case, as I have many times told you: In the fall of 1922, AA was far away from Dalldorf and had absolutely no communication with Thea Malinowsky. For her to have given a date in fall of 1922 would have made no sense at all. And I am sorry for dropping all these new names for you, but I see it as important here to back up my answers.

If Grunberg threw her 'out on her ear' as you say perhaps he realized she was a fake.

Grünberg was not capable of telling whether she was genuine or not since he never met Anastasia.

What campaign? You mean ID'ing her as FS, her true identity? Please, spare me the Uncle Ernie stuff again, I have answered it no less than 2 maybe 3 times in this thread alone.

How can I spare anybody the Uncle Ernie stuff when Gilliard started to introduce himself as "the Representative of the House of Hesse"? That should clearly show us who was behind him.

Excuses and speculation that really don't make any sense at all.

Funny that you, of all people, should say that.

Really the way aa supporters go to great lengths to give AN German skills she never had just to excuse why AA used it is far fetched, and there's really no need to argue it anymore.

I think there is a great need to argue it since some people will continue to deny the education in the German language in spite of Anastasia's own school books clearly showing that she had a somewhat command of German.

Ahem. I'm afraid I'd have to get too personal to respond to this and the mods would be upset with me.

Then you should not come up with such allegations.

You seem to believe Knopf was lying and setting her up. I don't.

I have already given you examples of Knopf's fabrications.

Again with the relatives, we've been through their reasons to deny her. Besides in those days with the clothing styles the way they were who could see scars? And brothers don't normally see their sisters naked (and they hadn't seen her for a long time) But I stick to my theory they were denying her.

You may stick to any theory you want, it is a free country. But I would feel much better if you could back up your posts with some kind of reference.

No, it was in the notes of Berenberg-Gossler and other anti-AA attorneys, but sadly most of those who write books about AA are more interested in supporting her claim rather than giving the other side, therefore such things go unpublicized. Massie used them as have other books. As Berenberg Gossler said, during the trials, the press was only interested in her side so the editors withdrew their reporters before the anti- aa side was told. This led directly to the lopsided documented 'evidence' we have today, meaning AA supporters can always put a page number to things and those against her claim cannot.

And where did BG get his information from? Being a lawyer, I am sure he had a source.

BG was going to write it all in his memoirs but sadly passed away before he was finished. I hope someday someone will put them out for us to see.

So do I.

The detective who pronounced her as FS had them too, it was part of the investigation.

All Knopf had, was Doris Wingender.

So you cannot provide the alleged records that supposedly say she wasn't hurt, I didn't think so, they don't exist.

Again, excuses. There's no reason she wouldn't speak Russian to Russians if she knew it.

But she DID speak Russian to Russians, I already told you this.

The kindest thing I can say is that this is absolute fiction. I read another version where when he got killed he had gone out to sell her jewels; she had them until then. She and her supporters couldn't even stick to one version of this fairy tale.

Her rescuer got shot in a street brawl in Bucharest in 1919. The reason we don't know, so far, everything said and written about it has been pure speculating. He lived for three days before he died of the wounds.

Here is AA's original statement:

I arrived in Bucharest at the end of 1918. I got married to Alexander Tschaikovski, January 18, 1919, according to the Catholic rite, in a Catholic church situated not far from the place and house where I lived in Bucharest. I do not remember the name of the church or the name of the priest who married us.
Before my marriage, I converted to Catholicism, but now I want to again return to the Orthodox church. December 5, 1918, I had a son who was baptized according to the Catholic rite by the same priest who married us.
My name was listed as Anna Romanska (sic); on the marriage certificate which was in possession of my husband. My son was baptized in January 1919; I do not remember the date. He was given the name Alexis.
In August 1919, my husband, Alexander Tschaiikovski was injured on a street in Bucharest having been shot, and died three days later. He was buried in a Catholic cemetery in Bucharest. (Signed) Baron Kleist ]
Again, they couldn't get their facts straight, because nothing in the story was a fact. Any cop will tell you the first sign of a guilty liar is changing the story multiple times.

This is not AA's statement, this is something Baron Arthur von Kleist put together. It is not even known if AA did at all get married to her rescuer, from her telling about the wedding, it seems more like a regular mass, and she was told that she was married in order to pacify her. Her son was born in the fall of 1919, and he was named Alexander after the father.

Why bother?

You are quite right.

 

[ChatNoir]

What way did they treat her? Denying she was AN when she wasn't? They weren't her family.

Grand Duke Andrew seemed to believe so. And so did Xenia Leeds, and they were both her family.

Oh that's real accessible for us!

I'm just trying to set the record straight.

Could it be they may have been incriminating to AA's case, or his memory?

On the contrary, they contained many, many pages of valuable support for AA's case, but now lost because of Fallow's daughter being unwilling to release them for reasons stated before.

I have, you deny it

Translated version of http://www.botkine.com/FAMILLE/HISTOIRE/index.php?t1=Histoire&t2=&r=TEXTES/gleb.php

It's also in books, I don't have page numbers handy now. Of course Fallows officially started it, being the attorney, however this doesn't absolve Gleb of his direct involvement to it and its purposes.

Sorry, what you have, is total incorrect information. It is a very good example of hearsay.
And please remember: By the time Grandanor was incorporated on February 9, 1929, AA and Gleb Botkin were no longer on speaking terms. All information about Grandanor can be found in Fallows' papers.

Yes, word of mouth from supporters. I knew all this that's why I said what i did.

I think you still confuse "word of mouth" with written and oral statements.

 

[lexi4]

In 1935, Fallows sunk so low as to appeal to Adolf Hitler for help in getting Anderson's claim recognized! He snuggled up to Hitler with terms such as "Honorable" and "Esteemed Sir" and used hateful anti-semitic remarks about the Bolsheviks who had killed "Anastasia's" family. It was all for nothing, as Fallows never heard back from Der Fuhrer.

Where did this quote come from? I have not read Welch's book. Is it worth reading?

 

[ChatNoir]

Where did this quote come from? I have not read Welch's book. Is it worth reading?

Welch's book contains very, very little new information if you are acquainted with Harriet Rathlef Keilmann's and Gleb Botkin's books. It is very much a rehash of these two, with some Peter Kurth thrown in. She is apparently trying to advance the claim that AA was FS, but ends up doing a rather poor job of it. (See reviews on Amazon.com.uk)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I was so determined to prove this I drove directly to the library and tried to get the books, but both are checked out. I will try another library another time.

Welch's book does use other sources already seen over and over in other books, but does have some new info. The interesting thing about her book is that it's written under the known premise that AA was not AN, and therefore looks at it that way and not in a 'maybe she was maybe she wasn't' way. She makes no attempts to debunk the myth as I do, in her view, that was done by the dna and is not necessary. She does have a few tidbits that no pro AA writer would ever use.

Lexi have you answered the poll posted by the mod? Your posts generally support Chat and AA's case, what is your stand, do you believe the 1994 DNA test, and do you believe the 2007 bones are those of the last two children?

 

[Russophile]

Grand Duke Andrew seemed to believe so. And so did Xenia Leeds, and they were both her family.

As did Mathilda Kschessinska. See her book: Dancing in St. Petersburg.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

She never met the real AN. Being her father's ex mistress I can imagine it would have been awkward to have her hanging around! She met her once she was elderly, and again gave the very weak "must be because she has Nicky's eyes" answer, nothing unique to AN herself because she'd never met her. I'm sure the kindly old soul wanted one of Nicky's kids to live, but they didn't.

Her husband, Grand Duke Andre, being married to the Tsar's ex mistress and being the brother and son of Nicky and Alix's worst enemies in the family the Vladimirovich, was hardly a frequent family guest, either. He's touted as an 'aide de camp' of the tsar, but the tsar had several, and according to lists I've seen posted on AP, he was not one of the more popular or close ones.

In addition to that, his inollvement in the AA charade was very suspect, having written to Sergei Botkin, uncle of Gleb and head of the Russian emigre' community in Berlin:

The number of people who have been drawn into this work is very large, and among them such strict discipline is apparent as was never present in Russian circles.”(Kurth p.152) What did he mean by ‘discipline? Was this a ‘code of silence’ that those involved in the charade would never speak of it? What did it mean that he distinguished the group from ‘purely Russian circles’, that there were others involved who were not Russians? His words do prove at least by 1927, her network of 'helpers' was 'very large.' If even one of them were to give it away, the entire house cards would fall and everyone involved would go down, so it's not surprising they never gave themselves away.

Olga A. wrote to a friend in 1928:

ebruary, 15th 1928, Hvidore

Dear Miss B***,

Indeed, you understand like us the absurdity of this story! More and more, I see that this story is all about blackmail and money....I say openly that my cousin André must have some vile motives to side against us…

Regardless of it all, Andre/Andrew refused to have anything to do with the case after Gleb's scathing letter to the Tsar's sister. I don't have the direct quote, but after finding out about this Andre was furious at Gleb, declaring that he had 'ruined everything.' WHAT did he ruin?

Your Imperial Highness!

Twenty four hours did not pass after the death of your mother when you hastened to take another step in the conspiracy against your niece...Before the wrong which Your Imperial Highness is committing, even the gruesome murder of the Emperor, his family and my father by the Bolsheviks pales! It is easier to understand a crime committed by a gang of crazed and drunken savages than the calm, systematic, endless persecution of one of your own family, the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna, whose only fault is that, being the only rightful heir to the late Emperor, she stands in the way of her greedy and unscrupuous relatives.

 

[Russophile]

She never met the real AN. Being her father's ex mistress I can imagine it would have been awkward to have her hanging around!

That would have been beyond the pale if Nicky had Mathilda personally meet his family. Nicky and Alix had a very passionate relationship, she probably would go ballistic if that ever happened.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Oh Alix would never have put up with that! Egads! I guess that's why she didn't!

 

[ChatNoir]

Maybe we should look at WHY Gleb wrote this letter. From "The Woman who rose again":
A friend of mine who was very close to some of the highest officials in Washington informed me privately that, left unanswered, the statement of Grand Duchess Xenia and her children (The Copenhagen Statement) had to be accepted by the United States Government as true; and the Unites States could not harbour impostors and would, therefore, on the basis of Xenia's statement deport Anastasia back to Germany. Moreover, there being no possibility of Anastasia's bringing a libel suit against her aunts in Europe, the only thing that could be done was for me to issue a counter-statement strong enough to make it a grave libel if untrue. Should Grand Duchess Xenia bring a libel suit against me, Washington would allow Anastasia to remain in this country for all the duration of the litigaton. And should Xenia fail to bring suit against me, Washington would accept it as a confession on her part that she knew my statement to be true and hence knew her own accusations against Grand Duchess Anastasia to be false.

When somewhat later Xenia's husband, Grand Duke Alexander, arrived in this country a delegation of Russians went to ask him what he or his wife planned to do to refute my accusations. Alexander answered that he had already written a very stern letter to my uncle, Peter.

 

[ChatNoir]

As for Grand Duke Andrew, here are some of his own words about the case:
(My apologies if I have posted this already.)
Villa Alam, Cap d'Ail, A/M. 8th July, 1928

Mr. P. S. von Kügelgen
Berlin-Zehlendorf,
Kleistrasse 20.

My dear Paul Pavlovich,

In order to obviate the possibility of any misunderstanding whatever, I should like to indicate in general lines the object of my work.
When I began my investigations, it became obvious to me that everything that had hitherto been done had been carried out unsystematically, that no accurate reports existed, and that no one had been inspired by a fixed purpose.

It is perfectly obvious that the question of the "Unknown," as she was called, must be dealt with in such a manner that the first point to be established is whether it was as all probable that one of the Princesses was rescued from Ekaterinburg. Inquiries made with this object in view have yielded no documentary evidence; but it transpired that the rescue of one of the Prencesses was not merely probable, but might almost be regarded as an established fact. The absence of precise information admittedly renders it impossible to treat this hypothesis as proved, and for this reason many people disagree on the point. Nevertheless, facts are known to me which have convinced me, although at the moment I do not feel myself justified in divulging them, since this aspect of the case must be handled very carefully.
The question next arises, whether the "Unknown" sho appeared in Berlin is identical with the Princess. As documentary evidence is lacking, we are forced to content ourselves with the interrogation of the patient herself. chiefly in regard to verifying her recollections. As far as this is concerned, I must state that her reminiscences, so far as I have been able ro examine them, yield a description, clear in every respect, of actual facts. Everything which she recalls is an absolutely accurate description of the life of the Royal Family, including details which have never appeared in the Press. My own opinion is that the things which the patient remembers are such as only the Princess herself could recall.
We next come to a question which has given rise to considerable doubt, whether the "Unknown" resembles the Princess in appearance. I have seen her personally, and was greatly impressed by the striking similarity; I was even more struck by the general family resemblance, which is in some respects of almost greater importance than a personal likeness. My impression was, of course, a personal one, but it was so strong and so convincing that I could come to no other conclusion than that the patient could only be the Princess Anastasia Nikolaevna herself.
All the doubts so far expressed by the Press are completely removed by the scientific and practical results of my investigations. ALthough I was prepared to admit that there might be objections, I have been compelled to regard them as entirely unfounded and unproven. My opinions are confirmed by the similar manner in which these objections have been treated by Duke George von Leuchtenberg.
As regards two other questions, it is absolutely necessary that they should be fully confuted: the first is whether any political influence enters into the case. The reappearance of the Princess can have no political significance, since, in view of the fact that male members of our dynasty survive, her chance of succession is a very remote one. The second question is that of material interests being involved. Long before the "Unknown" appeared, I carefully investigated all the rumours concerning the existence of the millions alleged to have been left by the late Tsar; in every case these rumours proved to be unfounded, as I expected. Unfortunately it has to be borne in mind that this statement is being used as a means of throwing suspicion on all who took any part in my inquiries, by accusing them of being influenced by self-interest and speculative motives.

The object which I undertook when commencing my work is and continues to be the same - to establish the truth, be it what it may. All who have helped me for nearly two years are inspired by the same aims, so that I am grieved and angered by the accusations levelled against them, even more so than by those of which I myself am the victim, The investigation has never deviated from the prescribed methods, and has embraced with equal readiness all material whether favourable or otherwise.

No matter how much time is required, the investigation will be pursued until the truth is established and proved, for it is just as inconceivable that a stranger should claim to be the Princess, as that the Princess herself should be in such a distressing position. I must not omit to express my gratitude to the German Press for its help in much of my work, and would like to express the hope that in the future it will devote to the matter the same attention and accord the same unbiased treatment, and thus help me to ascertain the truth.

In conclusion, I wish to emphasize the fact that I regard it as my duty to carry my investigations to a conclusion, and that I shall spare myself no labour in my efforts to endure that truth triumphs in the end.
Everyone may rest assured that I shall be the first to admit it, if in the future evidence is produced that I have been mistaken, and that the patient is not the Princess. If, however, proof is forthcoming that I was right, and that she actually is the Princess, it will afford me an extraordinary moral satisfacton that I and all who have so devotedly helped me have fulfilled this duty to the end. This will be the greatest reward for all of us.

Sincerely yours,
Andrew.

 

[ChatNoir]

As for Andrew withdrawing from the case, please see Peter Kurth page 277:

It was no secret that Kyril had recently ordered his brother, Grand Duke Andrew, to cease all activity in Anastasia's interest.

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

Chat has easily refuted many of your points but I am sure you will be pleased to know that I have a few comments!

Also, as Klier and Mingay pointed out, it's very possible that the German staff, not knowing any or much of either language, mistook Polish for Russian..

Who said that, and might they have mistaken Polish for Russian..

Amongst others - Dr Rudnev - who spent many years in Russian as a doctor. I think he could tell the difference. As could several nurses who spoke either Russian or Polish, as mentioned by Chat, by name.

It's a German and Polish accent.

That's not what the language experts said and I think I'll take their opinion over yours.

Besides, AN didn't learn English from Gibbes, she learned it from her parents and her British nanny. She didn't start taking lessons with Gibbes until she was about 7, after already speaking English since babyhood. .

Actually Gibbes was recruited after Alexandra was told that her children spoke horrible English so they obviously didn't do a very good job in teaching their children that language, did they? Also, one's accent can indeed change after the age of seven. Mine did and I know plenty of other people whose accents changed after that age.

This was not because they didn't know English it was because they were speaking with Scottish dialect due to their nanny (from what I've read)

So according to you, their accent did change - at least from Scottish to something else! Incidentally, where did you read that?

The FACT is that AN DID NOT SPEAK OR USE GERMAN in her real life. Taking lessons does not = useable knowledge. Those who knew them said 'they knew no German' or 'German was never used in the family.' This does NOT men they didn't take lessons, this means they don't speak it functionally.

The girls had German lessons SEVERAL TIMES A WEEK according to their school books and timetables. Anastasia's schoolbooks also show that her written German work was actually BETTER than her Russian. Once in a German environment she would certainly have been able to converse. 'German was never used in the family.' is utterly pedantic - just because she didn't speak it on a day to day basis with Aunt Olga etc, does not mean she couldn't speak it if required. I am learning German - I don't speak it with my family but that doesn't mean I can't do so if necessary.

Massie's book and several other reliable sources state clearly FS was injured in the grenade factory, and suffered severe head injuries. .

WHICH other "reliable sources"? Please quote them so you can show us if we are wrong.

[SIZE=+0]So you cannot provide the alleged records that supposedly say she wasn't hurt, I didn't think so, they don't exist.[/SIZE][SIZE=+0].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]You apparently can't produce sources showing she WAS hurt. [/SIZE]

it was in the notes of Berenberg-Gossler and other anti-AA attorneys, but sadly most of those who write books about AA are more interested in supporting her claim rather than giving the other side, therefore such things go unpublicized. Massie used them as have other books. As Berenberg Gossler said, during the trials, the press was only interested in her side so the editors withdrew their reporters before the anti- aa side was told. This led directly to the lopsided documented 'evidence' we have today, meaning AA supporters can always put a page number to things and those against her claim cannot. BG was going to write it all in his memoirs but sadly passed away before he was finished. I hope someday someone will put them out for us to see..

Can you please give us sources? (ie Massie quotes medical report or eyewitnesses)
Also which papers withdrew their reporters? I have never seen anyone but you say this. If it is in Berenberg-Gossler's unpublished memoirs, how do you know - have you seen them?

Oh, the same nurse who lied about the date and then blamed it on the newspaper? I never heard of the other one. You drop a lot of names and assume everything they say is true but we'll never know enough about the person to know what really happened..

I've certainly heard of all these people. You should have too.

Quote - Fallows notes are at the Houghton Library

Oh that's real accessible for us!.

Harvard is much closer for you than most of us

I believe, but don't have the records of course, this originally discovered by the investigation of the detective who identified AA as FS. They're also in the papers of Dr. Berenberg- Gosslerr..

II don't have the books handy because they were only from the library. I believe it was Massie's Final Chapter and Frances Welch's Romanov Fantasy.(the daughter stuff too).

In 1935, Fallows sunk so low as to appeal to Adolf Hitler for help in getting Anderson's claim recognized! He snuggled up to Hitler with terms such as "Honorable" and "Esteemed Sir" and used hateful anti-semitic remarks about the Bolsheviks who had killed "Anastasia's" family. It was all for nothing, as Fallows never heard back from Der Fuhrer.[/i]

If you don't have the books, then where did you get this quote come from ?

In addition to that, his inollvement in the AA charade was very suspect, having written to Sergei Botkin, uncle of Gleb and head of the Russian emigre' community in Berlin

The number of people who have been drawn into this work is very large, and among them such strict discipline is apparent as was never present in Russian circles.”(Kurth p.152) What did he mean by ‘discipline? Was this a ‘code of silence’ that those involved in the charade would never speak of it? What did it mean that he distinguished the group from ‘purely Russian circles’, that there were others involved who were not Russians? His words do prove at least by 1927, her network of 'helpers' was 'very large.' If even one of them were to give it away, the entire house cards would fall and everyone involved would go down, so it's not surprising they never gave themselves away.

If you had actually read Andrei's letters properly, you would know he was referring not to AA's supporters but to those who opposed her and his comments about non Russians obviously refers to the Duke of Hesse.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Chat has easily refuted many of your points but I am sure you will be pleased to know that I have a few comments!

If you accept his version, and the things the AA supporters claimed years ago which is where he got his info, Kurth's book based mostly on those things and has nothing from the 'other side.' He was clearly making a case for AA to be AN (though not nearly as blatant as Lovell!)

Amongst others - Dr Rudnev - who spent many years in Russian as a doctor. I think he could tell the difference. As could several nurses who spoke either Russian or Polish, as mentioned by Chat, by name.

As I said above, if you believe the version relayed by AA supporters. I don't accept every single quote by every person as a 'fact.'

That's not what the language experts said and I think I'll take their opinion over yours.

ONE you can't even name, and as we've seen from the ears and face 'experts' they are not always reliable or accurate. We know now they weren't since AA was not AN.

Actually Gibbes was recruited after Alexandra was told that her children spoke horrible English so they obviously didn't do a very good job in teaching their children that language, did they? Also, one's accent can indeed change after the age of seven. Mine did and I know plenty of other people whose accents changed after that age.

So according to you, their accent did change - at least from Scottish to something else! Incidentally, where did you read that?

Their English wasn't 'atrocious' as in they couldn't speak it, it was the dialect and properness of it. I'm sure most Brits think most Americans speak 'atrocious' English but this is not the same thing as a lack of knowledge of the language. If you want to hear really 'atrocious' English check out the tapes and videos of AA/FS and her massacre of it ("dirt I was living!")

The girls had German lessons SEVERAL TIMES A WEEK according to their school books and timetables. Anastasia's schoolbooks also show that her written German work was actually BETTER than her Russian. Once in a German environment she would certainly have been able to converse. 'German was never used in the family.' is utterly pedantic - just because she didn't speak it on a day to day basis with Aunt Olga etc, does not mean she couldn't speak it if required. I am learning German - I don't speak it with my family but that doesn't mean I can't do so if necessary.

AA supporters really push this a bit too hard. I realize they are desperate to do so since those who knew AN well said she did NOT use German and you're trying to come up with excuses why she could have, but if you're going to go by quotes from eyewitnesses you have to accept theirs, too, even though they disagree with your perceived view.

WHICH other "reliable sources"? Please quote them so you can show us if we are wrong.

Something you need to realize here- just because something is written down in Kurth's book and you can quote it doesn't make it a 'fact', it's just a piece of evidence for consideration like everything else.AA supporters smugly ask for 'sources' because they know there isn't much written down on the anti AA side (partly because, as Berenberg Gossler said, it was never recorded because the papers only wanted AA's side because it sold better, and partly because most rational people don't bother because they know the DNA speaks for itself) and they can always whip out Kurth's book and quote a page and this is supposed to be a 'fact' that trumps everything else, but it's already been defeated by the DNA.

[SIZE=-0]

You apparently can't produce sources showing she WAS hurt.

Massie's book, Godl's site, and other books I no longer have handy. I have been reading on this subject for 32 years now, I see a lot, don't always have a page number handy. This plays right into the hands of AA supporters, because they can always whip out Kurth's book and think they can trump us with a 'real' 'source' but it's really just a collection of hearsay and parts of the story. I could also write a book and quote a page, but that wouldn't make you believe it.
[/SIZE]

Can you please give us sources? (ie Massie quotes medical report or eyewitnesses)

Also which papers withdrew their reporters? I have never seen anyone but you say this. If it is in Berenberg-Gossler's unpublished memoirs, how do you know - have you seen them?

Again, in his acknowledgements for "Final Chapter" he quotes that he used the unpublished works of Berenberg-Gossler among others. Since BG was an attorney in the AA case, apparently he had access and and records of things we don't see (and no AA supporter is ever going to put them in their book!)

Harvard is much closer for you than most of us

It's a good thousand miles. Not everyone has the luxury of their days free and an unlimited supply of time and money for travel.I certainly don't. Sure Kurth is rich and can fly about the world at will but not me.

If you don't have the books, then where did you get this quote come from ?

I had a copy of Final Chapter but like a few other books it disappeared in my last move (2005) I had a copies of it and Welch's books from my local library and went to get them but they are now checked out by somebody else (which is good so that person can find out AA is not AN!) I have also owned and checked out a lot of books over the years. Some are in libraries no longer near me. Others have been taken off the shelf as too old and put in book sales. I had the books with me at the time I wrote my site, and also I got help from other people who owned the books who emailed me the info.(and why am I even explaining myself and what good will it do?)

If you had actually read Andrei's letters properly, you would know he was referring not to AA's supporters but to those who opposed her and his comments about non Russians obviously refers to the Duke of Hesse.

Obviously? That's not the way it was quoted in Klier's book.

In the end you can never trump the truth. History and science have spoken. The DNA tests proved AA was not AN and matched FS's family. Now the bones found last summer are proven to be the last two missing kids, whichever daughter it is, they are now all accounted for. So this means that all the quotes, hearsay,'testimony' etc. of all those pro AA witnesses were either wrong, lying or mistaken. AA was not AN, and never was in Russia and never knew anything AN would have known. That's the bottom line and the final chapter.