Alexei and Haemophilia

[The O.C. Fanatic]

Does anyone think that Alexei was never really a hemophiliac? I have never read no proof of the diagnosis or any medical reacords. The only formal statemate that I have read so far was by a physician of the Imperial court where the doctors described the boy's symptoms as a "significant anemia".

When I read about his episodes or whatever. He always ends up having fever. People suffering from the disease do bruise easily and bleed a lot when they are cut but they do not suffer fevers as a result. During Alexei's most serious episode he sufferd from internal hemorrhage, bleeding in the joints, abdominal swelling,... All these symptoms he had are the symptoms a person with THROMBOCYTOPENIA have.

I think Rasputin knew that Alexei didn't have hemophilia but didn't say anything for whatever reason.

I don't know. Maybe Alexei never really had hemophilia maybe he just had thrombocytopenia all along.

That's what I think anyway.

 

[Feberin]

I think Alexei had hemophilia although I don't know that much about the disease. He certainly was at risk for the disease and when he started to crawl as a baby he developed big bruises on his legs. Also most of his bleeding episodes had causes such as falling down in a boat and such.

 

[Alicky]

We'll never know for sure what he really had, and there are so many types of coagulation disorders period. But hemophilia was a major problem with Alix's family branches, and the ways that thrombocytopenia is caused/contracted slim the odds (looking at Alexei's situation) way down. So if we were betting on odds, the odds would be for hemophilia.

As far as "abdominal swelling," in order to have that result he would have had to have had Immune Thrombocytopenia Purpura, and that is highly unlikely again given Alexei's situation. And as far as the fevers, hemophiliacs can often go into hemorrhagic fevers, and bleeding in the joints is very common in hemophiliacs.

But if the trained doctors swarming around Alexei couldn't figure out for sure what he had, I don't know how plain ol' Rasputin would know. (Unless he was psychic.......lol!)

O.C. fan, I was wondering if you've read anything by Mr. Kendrick?

 

[COUNTESS]

Alexis was a full blown hemophiliac. Unfortunately, inherited from his relationship to Queen Victoria. He suffered massive hemorrahages, such as the one at Spala, where he almost died. The poor child suffered greatly. He, certainly, would not have survived. The gilrs were not "bleeders". Hemophilia does not affect women, they just carry the gene. No where have I ever seen this as referenced. Hands touching hair will not degrade DNA. By the way, 44 fragments, is quite enough. Whether this is all true, who knows. That would not be alive today is certain. And, Harry's polo shirt, if you think all human beings deserve a proper burial, you are correct. Perhaps, we should start with the mass graves that were found in concentration camps and their surroundings. What I am saying, is that it would be lovely if we could afford all the dead their proper burial, unfortunately, we can't. That is the very sad part of life.

 

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

Alexis was a full blown hemophiliac. Unfortunately, inherited from his relationship to Queen Victoria.

I will disagree with you. Alexis was not a hemophiliac. He was being poisoned from the moment he was born.
Coumadin it is called in the USA, in the UK we call it Warfarin.

All the children were noted bleeders and Alix was always ill.

The palace was riddled with double agents.

 

[Russophile]

Lisa, I would have to ask for references on these. Do you have books cited? Cuz that would be very interesting. Thanks!

 

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

Sorry I do not not have any references or have any books to cite.

I was told this by someone who has extensive knowledge of the Romanovs.

It was pointed out to me that Rasputin supposedly healed Alexis although being miles away at the time. Everyone seems to think this was some sort of magic!
Much more likely that he sent a message to the poisoner to go easy on the poison because it was not time yet.

Alexis suffered most because he was the reason for hope within the Imperial family and hated by enemies of the Imperial family.

Hemophilia appeared out of nowhere in the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family and disappeared just as suddenly. It does not seem to fit the normal pattern for this genetically inherited disease.

The girls in the family were bleeders. In hemophilia girls inherit the genes and pass them on but do not exhibit symptoms.

Warfarin was available at that time.

 

[Russophile]

Maybe they can help you out with references? Because the poisoning thing sounds a bit far-fetched.
It is true that Rasputin "healed" Alexis from far away. But I believe a more logical solution was that he had the tsarevich relax. When you are upset, you tend to bleed more. When you relax, your body can repair itself. I believe Rasputin used breathing and relaxation techniques with Alexis. I believe that came from Rasputin: The Holy Devil by Rene Fulop-Miller. Yussopov (Lost Splendor) cites Rasputin used hypnosis.
Massie's Nicholas and Alexander says that Alexis had hemophilia. But nobody ever documented this that it was full-blown (as Countess ascertains) or if it actually was a plate-let disorder. The Canadian Hemophilia Society has some fascinating articles on other disorders that LOOK like hemophilia and are related to hemophilia but are NOT hemophilia.
Here is their website: Types of Platelet Function Disorder

 

[acdc1]

I read in numerous books, such as Nicholas and Alexandra, that it was most likely a gene mutation. Perhaps it died out because everyone stopped marrying their first cousins.

 

[COUNTESS]

First of all Coumadin, generic is wafarin, was discovered by the Univeristy of Wisconsin Alumni Research Team and was patened in 1945, 27 years after they died.

Secondly, Haemophilia appeared in Victoria's family in almost every branch. It is called a "de novo mutation". Victoria had one son, Leopold, who suffered from it, as well as numerous grandsons and greatgrandsons, who also suffered from it. This is very well documented. Queen Victoria's Gene, 1999, by Potts, as well as numerous other documents, including Haemophila: The Royal Disease. Nicholas and Alexandra, by Robert K. Massie, Xenia, Once a Grand Duchess, by John Van Der Kiste, Nicholas II, The Interupted Transition, by Helene Carrere d'Encausse and many other books and documents. Letter from Alexandra to her grandmother, Queen Victoria and other correspondence to and from the family. Prince Alfonso of Spain, Prince Gonzalo of Spain, Prince Waldemar of Prussia, Prince Henrich of Prussia, Prince Friedrich of Hesse and by Rhine. All died of hemophiliac cause, and all were directly related to Queen Victoria, as was Alexis.

Who ever said that this died out because cousins stopped marrying cousins was quite correct, but it is a latent gene and can reappear.

Alexandra had physical and a lot of emotional problems. She was prone to hysteria and often fainted. Alexis' health issues were a great burden to her, because, as she herself stated in letters to others, she brought it into the family. It was a terrible burden for a mother.

 

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

Coumadin has been around for a very long time.

Wikipedia says this about coumadin
"Warfarin is a synthetic derivative of coumarin, a chemical found naturally in many plants, notably woodruff (Galium odoratum, Rubiaceae), and at lower levels in licorice, lavender, and various other species."

You have quoted many people in Queen Victorias family who supposedly suffered from it, but were any of their bones actually tested? The hemophilia gene can be found in the DNA of people who suffer from hemophilia. All the books and documents that you quote, none of them have tested the DNA of people they are writing about. It is all speculation.

Not one author has bothered to have the DNA of the descendents of Queen Victoria tested, either living or dead.

It is all speculation and unless you can provide DNA evidence that proves otherwise please do not press your claims.

 

[sgl]

I also recall learning that the royal family in Russia had many members who suffered from hemophilia. I learned this when I took a Tsarist Russia history class in university. I wish that I could remember which family members had the disease, but I do know that it was documented by Russian historians and those who kept notes on the family.

 

[Russophile]

First of all Coumadin, generic is wafarin, was discovered by the Univeristy of Wisconsin Alumni Research Team and was patened in 1945, 27 years after they died.

Yes, 1945. And when was Massie's book written? 1967. There has been a LOT of research done since then.

 

[COUNTESS]

Yes, 1945. And when was Massie's book written? 1967. There has been a LOT of research done since then.

Yes, but there still was no Coumadin in 1918. In 1933 UW-Madison, was working on why a certain clover-hay was causing cattle to hemmorhage. R.A. Brink and W.K. Smith, contiued the research into 1941. The received a patent in 1945. Warfain is named for Wisconsin Alumni Reasearch Foundation, WARF, which later was made into Wafarin.

What has Massie's book and Coumadin or Wafarin have to do with each other?

Nicholas II, The Interupted Trasition was published in the year 2000, written by an author who is an authority on Russian and Slavic history.

Name one ligitimate source, that claims that they were being poisoned or that Alexis didn't have hemophilia. Name one source that says the girls were bleeders. Girls cannot be "bleeders", they only carry the gene and pass it on. If they were bleeders, they would hemmorhage at menses. I hope it is okay to use that word? OTMA, were beautiful, healthy girls. The oldest two had suitors from other royal house. Why would anyone try and fake results today? What would they gain?

A post script to my above message. I just went to the Canadian Hemophila Society, they list Alexis as a hemophiliac and discuss how it started with Queen Victoria and traveled through her family. They have made a study of this.

 

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

Girls cannot be "bleeders", they only carry the gene and pass it on. If they were bleeders, they would hemmorhage at menses.

Yes exactly. Why do you think Empress Alexandra Feodorovna was ill all the time. She was being poisoned by coumadin.

Rasputin would certainly known the properties of woodruff. He was meant to be a mystic and a healer, he would certainly known the medicinal properties of plants.

 

[COUNTESS]

There was no coumadin. Alexandra was not being poinsoned. No one has ever stated this. She had a great many pyschlological problems. Alexandra was not hemmorahging or bleeding excessively. No documents ever stated this, including letters from Alexandra to various family members, which have been published. Rasputin was not a healer. He was a self-proclaimed mystic. Many think that Alexandra was calmed by the fact that she believed he could heal someone and effectively, that made her response to Alexis more calming and he would eventually stop hemmoraghing, by time and lack of stress.

Al Bina, you make some very cogent statements. Thank you. Your perception and thought is much appreciated.

 

[Russophile]

Well, who WOULDN'T have psychological problems after bearing 4 girls when everybody wanted a boy?? Your status is reduced to brood mare. You come to a court that is full of intrigue and adultery and your mother-in-law competes all the time with you for the spotlight of the Russian Court and your husband's attention?

 

[COUNTESS]

Of course, those were some of the problems. Then she produces a son, who is never going to live a normal, full life. Everthing is precarious. She hides the truth, so you get little or no sympathy. She was very shy. Her mother-in-law was gay and charming and outgoing. The way an Empress was supposed to be. Revolution is in the air. And, she had no capacity to handle any of these situations. Yes, she was, in many ways to be pitied.

 

[kelly9480]

Girls cannot be "bleeders", they only carry the gene and pass it on. If they were bleeders, they would hemmorhage at menses.

I'm sorry, but this shows a complete lack of understanding of genetics.

Hemophilia is caused by inheriting an affected X chromosomes. If a Xx woman, who is a carrier of the disease, marries an xY male, who is affected by the disease, any daughters born of the marriage would be either Xx or xx, meaning either a carrier or a hemophiliac. It is genetically possible to be a female hemophiliac.

Because of advances in medical technology, hemophiliac males are surviving to adulthood and fathering children whereas before they would have died long before they could have passed on their DNA. So there is actually an increase in female hemophiliacs, who are likely to experience unusually heavy menses (Menorrhagia) as a result, but, again, with modern medicine, this can be dealt with.

Either the Discovery Channel or TLC had a special a few years ago that followed a female hemophiliac as she was due to give birth to her second child. Everything looked perfectly normal until they did a clot test, when they showed how long it took for her blood to clot after they pricked her with a needle. The delivery was by scheduled cesarean, and the doctors were ready with the blood needed for a transfusion. She and the child survived.

 

[COUNTESS]

You are correct, but female hemophilia is so rare and not pertinent to this discussion I didn't enter it. OTMA were not bleeders in any sense. Yes, modern technology is wonderful, but hemophiliac men still don't live a full life. They made it to fatherhood even in the early 20th century, as Leopold, Duke of Albany, Queen Victoria's son, had children.

 

[COUNTESS]

And coumadin didn't exist when they were alive. Fact! Also, why would the present Russians care, whether Alexis had hemophilia or not? Why would they lie? This whole chapter is ancient history. There will be no restoration and, even, if there was, who cares? There is no reaosn to lie. A good portion of Queen Victoria's male decendants were cursed with this. Or were they all being poisoned?

 

[Harry's polo shirt]

Hemophilia is caused by inheriting an affected X chromosomes. If a Xx woman, who is a carrier of the disease, marries an xY male, who is affected by the disease, any daughters born of the marriage would be either Xx or xx, meaning either a carrier or a hemophiliac. It is genetically possible to be a female hemophiliac.

Hemophilia Galaxy | Your Hemophilia Information Resource | The Gist of Genetics

here is a drawing of that.

 

[plkbvt]

Well, who WOULDN'T have psychological problems after bearing 4 girls when everybody wanted a boy?? Your status is reduced to brood mare. You come to a court that is full of intrigue and adultery and your mother-in-law competes all the time with you for the spotlight of the Russian Court and your husband's attention?

AND you have a sister-in-law (GD Xenia Alexandrovna) who gives birth to SIX boys and only one girl -- it's not not hard to imagine how AF became really paranoid about it! pk

 

[COUNTESS]

Of course, that was one of the reasons that made her paranoid. She, also, knew, that hemophilia ran in her family and she was the carrier. How sad. She needed to provided an heir and when she did, he was sickly and would, probably not live until the Tsar died. She was very serious about providing an heir. Actually, in all essence, that was her whole job in life and she felt she muffed it. More's the pity. She was shy and inward and became very religious. She didn't fit into the gay, fun loving, extravagant court. She was a square peg in a round hole. Yes, you are right, she had a cross to bear, so to speak. No one has ever claimed to be a grandson or granddaughter of Tsar Nicholas II, all previous Anastasias and Alexises have all been frauds.

 

[lexi4]

There was no coumadin. Alexandra was not being poinsoned. No one has ever stated this. She had a great many pyschlological problems. Alexandra was not hemmorahging or bleeding excessively. No documents ever stated this, including letters from Alexandra to various family members, which have been published. Rasputin was not a healer. He was a self-proclaimed mystic. Many think that Alexandra was calmed by the fact that she believed he could heal someone and effectively, that made her response to Alexis more calming and he would eventually stop hemmoraghing, by time and lack of stress.

Al Bina, you make some very cogent statements. Thank you. Your perception and thought is much appreciated.

You are correct about the coumadin. It wasn't even patented/approved for use until the 1940s...long after the Imperial family was dead. It's uses weren't even discovered until the 1920s.
Lexi

 

[Elspeth]

There's a general thread on haemophilia in the European royal families in our Genealogy forum; you can find the thread here:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f96/haemophilia-european-royalty-10254.html

 

[J Kendrick]

Whilst confirming the gene would be interesting it actually makes little difference as Alexis is confirmed as being there with one of the Sisters and seems all are accounted for across the two pits. I have argued for some time that they should simply publish all the markers thus showing the exsistence of the IF in total so that we can now lay this sad subject to bed and move on at last.

Testing those bone fragments discovered in July 2007 for the presence of the long-suspected Factor VIII gene is not about who is present in the two pits and who is not.

That very same "New Information on Two Pits Found In July 2007" now also provides us all with the very real opportunity to find out, once and for all and with solid genetic evidence, whether or not the immensely popular but still *totally unproven* haemophilia story is actually true.

There is also the fact that Nikolai Nevolin has already committed the research team to testing those same bone fragments for evidence of that suspected faulty X-linked gene in the numerous public comments that he has made to the media over the past year and a half.

JK

 

[Michael HR]

I see your point and I suppose that would be interesting to confirm or not the long held theory about Alexis. Should I thought be quite easy if there is a DNA code?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

JK, I realize that the reason for you doubting the hemophilia diagnosis is because the Alexei claimant you support, Heino Tammet, had some other blood disorder mistaken for hemophilia, and that has been the basis of your questioning in the past. However, now that Alexei's body has been found and identified 100% as the nuclear biological child of both N and A, and since he was the only son, it's completely proven that Tammet was not Alexei- so how could it possibly matter to you now, unless you still deny the testing? Alexei died in 1918, regardless of what disease made him bleed. Since the disease ran so strongly in Alix's family, I don't know why it would be anything else.

 

[J Kendrick]

Forget claimants. This is not about claimants.

This is entirely about the fact that the popular story of hemophilia in the Royal family line is clearly flawed from the very start, as was so accurately pointed out by the professors Malcolm and William Potts in their book "Queen Victoria's Gene". The Potts brothers had even gone so far as to try and explain away the most obvious of all the flaws in the haemophilia story by questioning the identity of Queen Victoria's father and claiming in their 1995 book that she may have been illegitimate.

Recent DNA research into the question of how haemophilia starts -- research that is completely unrelated to the Romanov investigation -- has now raised even more serious doubt about the story that the disease had started with Alexei's great-grandmother Victoria.

Just two weeks ago (Dec. 18th, 2008), the following article was published on the Philadelphia Inquirer website:
Beginning to crack the code of 'junk DNA' | Philadelphia Inquirer | 12/18/2008

The key part of this article is found in the following paragraphs, which very neatly explain just how a "spontaneous mutation" can happen in the Factor VIII Gene... not first in the mother ... but in the birth of the first son to carry the disease. This explanation and others like it stemming from the same research would pretty much put the crimp on any of those now popular but totally unproven claims that the suspected "spontaneous mutation" that started it all had happened first in Victoria and not in her son.

"(Prof.) Kazazian had come across three genetically unusual cases - boys with haemophilia whose Factor VIII gene was disabled by an invading piece of stray DNA. The invading DNA belonged to a specific category of the junk DNA called a transposable element. These had been observed in plants, where they had the power to act like a virus, copying themselves and jumping to new parts of the genetic code."

"Using what is called a genetic probe, he was able to find the same sequence in a line1 element in the boy's mother, but it was in a different place, on Chromosome 22. (Human chromosomes are all assigned a number except the sex chromosomes, which are labelled X and Y.) In her case, it caused no problem. Kazazian said he suspected that the line1 element jumped from her Chromosome 22 to the X chromosome either in the mother's egg cell or during an early stage in the development of the embryo that became the boy."

There is even more similar evidence from the same researchers in a paper from 1994 titled "Factor VIII gene inversions causing severe haemophilia A originate almost exclusively in male germ cells": Factor VIII gene inversions causing severe hemophilia A originate almost exclusively in male germ cells -- Rosslter et al. 3 (7): 1035 -- Human Molecular Genetics

... the key words there being... of course... "originate almost exclusively in male germ cells" which, for all intents and purposes, would practically rule out any likelihood that the "spontaneous mutation" had happened first in Victoria... or that she was ever a carrier... even if her fourth son Leopold was a sufferer of the disease.

... and if Victoria could not be a carrier... because Leopold's disease would have been caused by either a gene inversion or the phenomenon now known as "jumping DNA"... which "originate almost exclusively in *male* germ cells"... then his sisters and nieces -- including Alexandra -- could *not* have been carriers either.

Therefore, Alexei could not have been a haemophiliac.. and if they have now found Alexei, as they now claim, then they must also now follow through and test those same remains for that same genetic evidence that will now settle those still unresolved questions once and for all.

The truth about the long-suspected blood disease is now there just waiting to be found in that "New Information on Two Pits Found July 2007"... and the leading investigator from Ekaterinburg, Nikolai Nevolin, has now publicly committed the researchers to completing all of the tests that are now necessary to uncover that same truth.

Happy New Year! ;-)

JK