Should Japan abolish the monarchy?

[Kasumi]

...

The article at your link dates back to 2004. The boss of IHA nowadays is the Owadas' long term friend. What was your point, anyway?

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

No, arent they one monarchy that actually serves a purpose?

 

[AristoCat]

I think they are. they have to be the only RF that isn't loaded with one scandal after another and in terms of wealth are actually quite poor.

 

[Tiberivs]

The article at your link dates back to 2004. The boss of IHA nowadays is the Owadas' long term friend. What was your point, anyway?

The IHA? I didn't wrote a word about the IHA. Please re-read my post.

Very observant of you, however you neglected to mention the reason for this. In affect the radical right would hurt anybody that would suggest abolishing the monarchy, hell even "disrespecting" the Imperial family by the neglecting to mention a member honorific title could get you stabbed.

Now, in that kind of atmosphere, do you really think Japan could have a open discussion about the necessity of the Emperor? I would think not.

And my point is that free discussion about the monarchy is suppressed by the radical right, usually when people need to resort to violence to repress free discussion its mean that the issue is far from being consensus among the people. So the point of about the lack of serious discussion about the abolishment of the monarchy is irrelevant.

Not to mention that the fact the Imperial family are the most imminent symbol to xenophobic, racist, militaristic and anti-democratic group is hardly a positive indication to them having a good influence in a democratic Japan.

 

[ChiaraC]

Not to mention that the fact the Imperial family are the most imminent symbol to xenophobic, racist, militaristic and anti-democratic group is hardly a positive indication to them having a good influence in a democratic Japan.

As far as I am informed you are still right on this one. But IMO we have the paradoxical situation in Japan that the institution of the monarchy may be anti-democratic while its actual representatives are not. The situation reminds me to some degree of that of Spain after Franco. (Please do not take me wrong: there are, of course, many differences concerning history, background, political situation, continent...) But what we saw in Spain was that the individual that happens to be king (or emperor) can make an important difference in a certain historical situation. Juan Carlos was meant to be Franco´s heir (by Franco). According to his role, he should have supported the right-winger militarist forces.
But he did not. Instead, he saved the Spanish democracy.

For more details of my opininion (if anybody is interested) please see here:
Is Japan’s Monarchy Anti-Democratic? | The Royal Forums

 

[Tiberivs]

As far as I am informed you are still right on this one. But IMO we have the paradoxical situation in Japan that the institution of the monarchy may be anti-democratic while its actual representatives are not. The situation reminds me to some degree of that of Spain after Franco. (Please do not take me wrong: there are, of course, many differences concerning history, background, political situation, continent...) But what we saw in Spain was that the individual that happens to be king (or emperor) can make an important difference in a certain historical situation. Juan Carlos was meant to be Franco´s heir (by Franco). According to his role, he should have supported the right-winger militarist forces.
But he did not. Instead, he saved the Spanish democracy.

For more details of my opininion (if anybody is interested) please see here:
Is Japan’s Monarchy Anti-Democratic? | The Royal Forums

Thanks for the link, I tend to agree with you that the present Emperor seem to be pretty decent guy who truly sorry for Japan's imperialist past and desire to have strong bonds of friends with Asian neighbors and former colonies, he for example refuse to visit the shrine where several war crimes were deified - the PM for example visit it.

The comparison to Spain is very interesting, the different to my view that while the Spanish King manage to reform the Royal establishment to be in tune with the democratic Spain the Japanese Emperor seem too weak to manage to do this.

 

[wartenberg7]

Very observant of you, however you neglected to mention the reason for this. In affect the radical right would hurt anybody that would suggest abolishing the monarchy, hell even "disrespecting" the Imperial family by the neglecting to mention a member honorific title could get you stabbed.

Now, in that kind of atmosphere, do you really think Japan could have a open discussion about the necessity of the Emperor? I would think not.

Oh, and that´s why it has to be discussed at a royal intenet forum...?!

 

[ChiaraC]

Thanks for the link, I tend to agree with you that the present Emperor seem to be pretty decent guy who truly sorry for Japan's imperialist past and desire to have strong bonds of friends with Asian neighbors and former colonies, he for example refuse to visit the shrine where several war crimes were deified - the PM for example visit it.

Yes, and in 2001 the emperor shocked the press by talking in detail about his Korean roots. (He said he had read in an eighth-century official history document that the mother of Emperor Kammu (736-806) was a descendant of Muryeong, the 25th king of Baekje, one of three ancient kingdoms on the peninsula.) The speech was front-page news in Korea whereas the huge majority of Japanese newspapers completely ignored it because they were afraid of the reaction from nationalists...

The comparison to Spain is very interesting, the different to my view that while the Spanish King manage to reform the Royal establishment to be in tune with the democratic Spain the Japanese Emperor seem too weak to manage to do this.

I agree with you but it I think that it was also the special historical situation that gave this power to the Spanish king. There was an open conflict between militarists and democrats. And that in that situation the king took a clear stand and said: if you want to abolish the democracy I am the first you have to shoot, that was, IMO, the moment when he really changed history. He is a constitutional monarch, like Akihito, and nowadays does not have much political power.

There is no such situation in Japan that would give the emperor a chance to really have an impact on things. But if there ever were to be an open conflict in Japan between democrats and right-winger nationalists, I am rather sure which side the emperor (and even more the crown prince) would take. Of course, it is possible, that such a situation will never become reality - especially as the idea of an open conflict is rather un-Japanese in itself....

 

[ChiaraC]

It is legitimate (and interesting) to have a debate about how far the right-wing influence in Japan still goes today, if the racism that has undoubtedly played a part in Japan´s history has still a meaningful influence or has finally been reduced to the cranky pastime of some outdated relics.

I do not know what Tiberivs has read but he might, for example, have heard that Ivan Hall, a historian of Japan and former diplomat, calls Japan’s monarchy the “ultimate linchpin of the myth of Japanese uniqueness and the lodestar for the most repressive ideas of racial superiority.”

 

[Al_bina]

I do no think that Mr.Hall is an ultimate authority on the Japanese culture and history. Japanese Emperors are the linchpins of the nation during hard times. This makes them unique and irreplaceable.

 

[ChiaraC]

I do no think that Mr.Hall is an ultimate authority on the Japanese culture and history. Japanese Emperors are the linchpins of the nation during hard times. This makes them unique and irreplaceable.

Albina, my point here is not whether Mr. Hall is an ultimate authority on the Japanese culture and history or not. (Incidentally, I doubt that anybody could fairly be called an ULTIMATE authority on the Japanese culture and history. Who should that be?) My point is not even if I agree with him or not. Actually, I hope that those who have read some of my posts are aware that I am not in favour of abolishing the monarchy in Japan. (Not that I think that anybody would ask me.)

In quoting Ivan Hall I was answering to <a deleted post> who made it sound as if only somebody who had never read anything relevant on Japan could talk about a connection of racism and the institution of the monarchy in Japan. And that is simply not true. There are many experts on Japan who are discussing it. And it is also true that in the past there have been incidents that showed that persons who criticize the emperor might be physically attacked. Of course, one could fairly question whether this could still happen nowadays but it is IMO not so absurd as to tell a poster who claims that it could, that he simply has no clue. And even IF somebody feels the urgent and irrepressible need to say that, then I would prefer this to be expressed in a respectful way.

I hope it is clearer now...

 

[ChristopherWales]

It is up to the people of Japan. However, I do think they might be the baby out with bath water if they do abolish the monarchy.

 

[Renata4711]

Having re-read this thread, I think they have far more important problems to contend with, e.g. nuclear disasters, earth quakes etc.

 

[Bones]

Gracious! No! Absolutely, positively no! The Japanese monarchy is the most ancient reigning dynasty in the world, the oldest succession in human history. Getting rid of it would be a crime, not just for Japan but for world history. Think of everything in all those centuries of history that the monarchy has survived just to have them tossed aside now on a democratic whim because the people are bored or something? Unthinkable. I mean, the Emperor of Japan is the only person in the world who can look at the Queen of Denmark, the Queen of England or even the Pope and say, 'oh yeah, the "new" guys'. The people can give them power or take away their power, I don't care, but no one has the right to say someone is not who they are. Japan without an emperor wouldn't be Japan.

 

[Kasumi]

... I mean, the Emperor of Japan is the only person in the world who can look at the Queen of Denmark, the Queen of England or even the Pope and say, 'oh yeah, the "new" guys'...

You are so funny!
You've made my day with your "new guys", thank you.

 

[Grandduchess24]

Everyone recognizes the Japanese emperor and the royal family and the people of japan must love and respect them but they will have issues in the future possibly and will eventually end unless who knows how much longer they will last.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I mean, the Emperor of Japan is the only person in the world who can look at the Queen of Denmark, the Queen of England or even the Pope and say, 'oh yeah, the "new" guys'.

LMAO! That is rich and hilarious. There we go case closed. If the English insist on keeping their monarchy because of history and tradition, then that works 10 fold for the Japanese monarchy.

 

[Tuf Pic]

Long live the yamato dynasty!!

 

[Admiral Horthy]

Japan needs to amend the American imposed constitution and make the Emperor the legal and rightful head of state and end his ambiguous position. He must be given a governmental role of some sort so that he is seen as a working monarch. He should be commander in chief of the defense force. The rest of the family should be given real jobs in the government, working as ambassadors or on trade missions or something.

The rule that imperial princesses must leave the family and lose their titles when getting married needs to be abolished. Imperial princesses should be allowed to start their own branches of the family, especially if they marry a member of the former aristocracy, which I believe one princess did. This could also be used to solve the succession problem. If a reigning emperor had no sons but one of his daughters did, that boy could inherit the throne. That way you respect tradition and reduce the pressure on the CP to produce an heir. And the pressure on poor Prince Hisahito.

It sounds like the IHA is too large and too powerful, the family should be given more so-say in their lives. Jobs in the IHA should also be more career oriented and less transitory. At one time employees of the IHA were life-long employees. The advantage to that is that they build a relationship with the family as well as become a contributing member of history and tradition, rather than just a temporary bureaucrat.

 

[amaryllus]

They don't amend that illogical out of date succession rule to at the very least allow princess's son's to inherit it's Russian roulette they are playing on the biggest scale... What happens if Hisahito dies young or has no children or just girls or if his son is just not suitable in some way.This child, mostly likely literally produced for this purpose, is what they are depending on will keep the oldest monarchy and the traditions of millennia alive? Really?

 

[Admiral Horthy]

They don't amend that illogical out of date succession rule to at the very least allow princess's son's to inherit it's Russian roulette they are playing on the biggest scale... What happens if Hisahito dies young or has no children or just girls or if his son is just not suitable in some way.This child, mostly likely literally produced for this purpose, is what they are depending on will keep the oldest monarchy and the traditions of millennia alive? Really?

A Imperial Princess's sons could inherit if she married an Imperial Prince! The Imperial Family is so small now that that isn't likely to happen, or even be a good idea. An Imperial Princess, if she so desires, should be allowed to retain her status and start a new branch of the family. A simple and practical solution.

 

[amaryllus]

Yeah,They got rid of the cadet royal and ancient noble families after the war which if course got rid of all the eligible prince's royal ladies would traditionally marry so part of the debacle right there.
What they should do and what they will are two totally different animals...To eventually save the monarchy they, the IHA and conservative PTB, will only go as far as they absolutely have to which, IMO, won't give the females an inch...their son's maybe. Heck, if they could I imagine a few would bring back concubine's if they could.

 

[GracieGiraffe]

I'd vote yes; the people may love their imperial house, but surely they must realize the heartache imposed on the family by all of the unreasonable restrictions they face.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Together with Sweden, the Japanese is the least politcal involved and utterly ceremonial monarchy. So it is what it is: a purely ceremonial symbol of Japan. And knowing how Japan loves its traditions and elaborate ceremonies, the country will be the very last to abolish the ancient monarchy, I think.

I'd vote yes; the people may love their imperial house, but surely they must realize the heartache imposed on the family by all of the unreasonable restrictions they face.

They do not. It is totally ganz selbstverständlich in their culture, to use a German saying (totally natural). You only need to look at the known rites for marriage, funerals, traditional sports like sumo, takagari (falconry), kyudo (archery), aikido (martial arts), etc. to see how utterly deep-rooted these ceremonies and cultural standards are. Princess Akishino and Princess Kiko show that they are very modern and approachable royals by the way, without neglecting the traditions. Look at this fantastic picture: http://jto.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/nn20111105a5a.jpg

 

[amaryllus]

For most all of Japanese history The emperor has been a puppet simply there for ceremonial purposes and so on and the various power holding samurai, warlords or governments could say they had the power of the Gods. He could conveniently be put aside by fair or fowl means if he got notions of power. The only difference now is that they aren't having dozens of sons to carry on.

 

[Blog Real]

Always monarchy.

I hope that the monarchy of Japan lasts forever. And the others, too.

Viva monarchies. Alive traditions!!!

 

[amaryllus]

Just imagine if the Portuguese, Russian, French, Chinese monarchies and all the rest were still around...Think of the discussions, the bling, the debates, the bling, the fashions, the bling we would have here.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Haha how busy we would be on the forum!

 

[Al_bina]

For most all of Japanese history The emperor has been a puppet simply there for ceremonial purposes and so on and the various power holding samurai, warlords or governments could say they had the power of the Gods. He could conveniently be put aside by fair or fowl means if he got notions of power. The only difference now is that they aren't having dozens of sons to carry on.

Presidents/Prime Ministers in the enlightened western regimes are puppets too. They front for money of rich industrialists and financiers/bankers.
I highly doubt that the Japanese will abolish the monarchy. Appropriate measure will be taken to continue the dynasty.

 

[Nico]

Is there such debate in Japan ?