Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

[NoShades]

No need to apologise - in the context of working out what style/title Harry will have, we can look at how other royals have been titled when they got married in this thread.

The question about Edward's title was specific to him and to titles in general so was moved over to the other thread.

For what it's worth, I do think Harry will be offered a Dukedom upon marriage - at least it would be my preference over an Earldom.

Thank you, and yes it'll be nice if he was made Duke once married.

Are you implying the Queen's house isn't in the right order? If that's the case, she shouldn't be trying to put Charles' future household in order.

BTW, I have the utmost respect for the Queen, that was just to point out the flaw to that logic.

No not at all, I don't mean it that way. The Queen is on the throne and probably will be for quite a while. Her direct heir has two grown up sons with the younger likely soon to follow in his older brother's footstep and get married. The Queen grants titles as a monarch so probably wants things done in an orderly way just as she's done with her sons. Nothing sinister on my part I'm only speculating as we all do. There's no need to jump to conclusions. That is all.

 

[Ish]

Oh I don't know. Could just be the Queen's way of helping Prince Charles put his house in order (in the right order) before his time comes to take over as a King ?

There's a precedent for adult children of the Prince of Wales though - the Queen's actions so far are just following much of what Queen Victoria did in her time.

During her reign, Victoria made each of her sons a Duke, then in time made both of the Prince of Wales' surviving sons (Albert Victor and George) Dukes themselves. Going a step further, she also elevated the husband of the Prince of Wales' eldest daughter to a Duke as well, as he was only an Earl prior to his marriage.

QEII has followed suit in most ways - there have been a few slight changes, owing to the people and the passage of time, but it's safe to expect that both of Charles' sons will, in time, be Dukes.

 

[Westfield Bakery]

It is very possible that Harry and Meghan, should they marry, could be Prince and Princess Harry of Wales. It is possible that he may not want a dukedom, a earldom, or a viscount position.

 

[Pranter]

It's unlikely you will see that happen. I'm pretty sure he's going to become Duke of X.


LaRae

 

[Skippyboo]

Even without a Dukedom, Harry will lose the of Wales, when Charles becomes King. He would be HRH The Prince Henry. William's children will become of Wales once William is created Prince of Wales.

 

[Mbruno]

That's not true, until Charles becomes King, the Queen's children takes precedence over William even if William is higher in line to the throne. Edward's earldom and William's dukedom does NOT change that.

Nevertheless, in the recent state banquet in honor of King Felipe VI of Spain for example, William preceded his uncles both in the entry procession and in his position at the table. In fact, in all public ceremonies like Church services, the members of the Royal Family always seem to be seated and exit the Church according to their position in the order of succession to the Crown, só I wonder if that overrules any other precedent rule.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Even without a Dukedom, Harry will lose the of Wales, when Charles becomes King. He would be HRH The Prince Henry. William's children will become of Wales once William is created Prince of Wales.

Before they become 'of Wales' assuming they ever do they will be 'of Cornwall and Cambridge'.

 

[NoShades]

There's a precedent for adult children of the Prince of Wales though - the Queen's actions so far are just following much of what Queen Victoria did in her time.

During her reign, Victoria made each of her sons a Duke, then in time made both of the Prince of Wales' surviving sons (Albert Victor and George) Dukes themselves. Going a step further, she also elevated the husband of the Prince of Wales' eldest daughter to a Duke as well, as he was only an Earl prior to his marriage.

QEII has followed suit in most ways - there have been a few slight changes, owing to the people and the passage of time, but it's safe to expect that both of Charles' sons will, in time, be Dukes.

Right, a precedent was set much earlier and Her Majesty is simply applying a similar model. I didn't know that so thanks for the info. I have to say I now agree with the general consensus here that Harry Wales will be made a Duke, not an Earl - by his gran. ?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

But Harry is a senior royal today and 1 of the 2 children of the POW. Harry is Way more popular than Edward ever was or ever will be . Can't compare Edward and Harry s situation.
Most importantly he's Diana s son and that in itself makes him different in the eyes of public .
I would be surprised if he isn't made a duke upon marriage !

Nothing so superficial as popularity and the person of the mother also plays no role in bestowing peerages. Antony Armstrong-Jones was created Earl Snowdon, Viscount Linley of Nymans and Baron Armstrong-Jones. Neither any possible popularity of Antony nor the person of his mother played any role.

 

[NoShades]

Nevertheless, in the recent state banquet in honor of King Felipe VI of Spain for example, William preceded his uncles both in the entry procession and in his position at the table. In fact, in all public ceremonies like Church services, the members of the Royal Family always seem to be seated and exit the Church according to their position in the order of succession to the Crown, só I wonder if that overrules any other precedent rule.

I feel this has more of a basis in reality and as a follower of the Windsor generation this is what I've observed as well. Gosh I sound old and I'm not much older than Wills ?

 

[Dee Anna]

Quoted for truth

Thank you and welcome to the form!

Even without a Dukedom, Harry will lose the of Wales, when Charles becomes King. He would be HRH The Prince Henry. William's children will become of Wales once William is created Prince of Wales.

If William is created Prince of Wales.

It's not an automatic title for next in line, but one granted by the Monarch.

However I can't see any reason for Charles not to extend the offer of the title. Camilla didn't use hers for obvious reasons and Kate would become the next Princess of Wales.

Unless of course, Charles wants to disconnect the family from a title so closely connected to and worn by Diana. But he wouldn't do that to William, who gave his then girlfriend his mother's engagement ring and will certainly want to give her his mother's royal title?

 

[Skippyboo]

No eligible person was not created Prince of Wales. The same if statement can be said for a peerage for Harry. No one has to give him one but it is almost a guarantee that it will happen.

The point of my post is even without a peerage. Harry would not remain HRH Prince Harry of Wales for the rest of his life. He will lose the territory designation and gain a The when his father is King.

 

[Osipi]

If Unless of course, Charles wants to disconnect the family from a title so closely connected to and worn by Diana. But he wouldn't do that to William, who gave his then girlfriend his mother's engagement ring and will certainly want to give her his mother's royal title?

That will never, ever happen. Diana was *a* Princess of Wales. There were many Princesses of Wales before her and there will be many more after her. It is a title that is part and parcel of being married to the Prince of Wales and that has been a designated position in the British Royal Family since 1301

From Wikipedia:

The title was recreated in 1301 for Edward of Caernarfon, the future Edward II. It was the first time the eldest son of the King of England was invested as Prince of Wales, making Edward II the first of the current line of Princes of Wales, of which His Royal Highness is the 21st.

 

[Denville]

It is very possible that Harry and Meghan, should they marry, could be Prince and Princess Harry of Wales. It is possible that he may not want a dukedom, a earldom, or a viscount position.

Why on earth would he want NOT ot have a title? He will want the normal mark of status that is usually conferred on a royal male when they marry. In Q Victoria's day it was when they reached "mature age", wehter married or not. Now in more egalitarian times the queen creates a title on the son or grandson's wedding, which also gives his children a "name to use" such as Prss Beat of York or P George of Cambridge.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Why on earth would he want NOT ot have a title? He will want the normal mark of status that is usually conferred on a royal male when they marry. In Q Victoria's day it was when they reached "mature age", wehter married or not. Now in more egalitarian times the queen creates a title on the son or grandson's wedding, which also gives his children a "name to use" such as Prss Beat of York or P George of Cambridge.

He doesn't need a title. A title gives him nothing extra than what he already has. He's going to be pushed further down the line of succession, I genuinely don't think he gives two ticks whether he gets one or not. I imagine he might get one for traditions sake.

 

[Denville]

Of course he does. All royal males of his rank, when marrying have been given a title, Andrew, Edward William.. if he didn't get one it would look very peculiar. Why wouldn't he care about being treated in a different way to other princes of his status

 

[Osipi]

I am presuming what Lumutqueen means is that Harry will probably follow the traditions of the family he was born into but as a person, he's not really the kind of guy that allows a title to define who he is. Its part of him but it doesn't define him.

At least that's how I interpreted it.

 

[Countessmeout]

Harry may not be traditional in many ways but he is still a royal. Even if his children have a private life, IMO he will want something to pass on to his kids. A dukedome is that.

The reality also is his wife would be Princess Harry. Unlike Princess Michael, his wife will be a full time working senior royal. Even if for some reason he insisted on being an earl and not a duke, at the very least there would be a title for his wife to use in her professional work for the firm.

Even if we keep going on about this supposed plan to slim down, that doesn't include Harry and his line. When Charles is king, he only has the two sons. As the queens cousins, and then people like Anne retire, the number of working royals will be less then half then it is already. A lot of flack for Harry and William to pick up with their wives, as their father will be busy with his new duties as king and no longer his old ones.

As for the suggestion that prince of wales wont be given because of Diana.... I am sorry but what???? I think Charles would associate the title more with, I don't know, himself, the longest serving prince of wales in history. Even if his sons are more modern, Charles is traditional. I don't see him breaking hundreds of years of tradition and not bestowing the title on his oldest son. Camilla was the one who made the choice to be referred as DOC. There is no reason to believe people would have anything against Diana's daughter in law having her former title. In fact most people would wonder if Charles was being petty and fearing his son's power, if he refused to give him the title.

 

[Denville]

Of course Charles will make William POW in due course.. and Harry will get a Dukedom when he marries.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Of course Charles will make William POW in due course.. and Harry will get a Dukedom when he marries.

I agree, I don't see anything different happening--but lots of circular arguments here about something that seems pretty straightforward.

 

[Denville]

Seems like people want to make out that Will and esp Harry are some sort of mavericks who don't follow normal royal traditons. ANd of course they are not like their father, or their Grandmother. They are a different generation and there are bound to be differences. But they are still royals and will want the normal "rules" to be followed.. such as getting a title when they get married. I remember a few yeaers ago that there was a load of nonsenscial discussion on another board, that William wanted Kate to be made "Princess Catherine" or that "he DIDNT want to have a Royal dukedom and K had to persuade hm to accept it."

 

[Mirabel]

If Harry did not get a title, or even if he received a lesser title than Duke of..., it would be construed as an act of hostility towards Meghan.
The press would go wild, it would be compared to Wallis Simpson and the whole HRH flap.

I'm sure the Queen realizes this, and will take care that it doesn't happen.

 

[duchessrachel]

A duke is actually the highest ranking of a peer in the UK. Its interesting to note too that a prince is not a peer in the UK but the title "prince(ss) is used to denote a close relative of a monarch.

I was surprised when I first learned that "Prince" was not considered higher than a "Duke". Why is Charles's primary title Prince of Wales instead of one of his Dukedoms? I just finished reading a couple of books on Queen Mary and it seemed that Queen Victoria preferred the title of Prince over any other. To keep this on topic, I think Harry will be granted a Dukedom.

 

[Skippyboo]

Prince is not a peerage but a Dukedom is. So a Duke is the highest ranking peerage in the U.K. However, if you had a dinner party and invited Prince Harry, Earl Spencer and the Duke of Westminster. The Duke of Westminster doesn't have higher Precedence than a Prince of the U.K. but the Duke would have precedence over Earl Spencer

 

[Abbigail]

If Harry did not get a title, or even if he received a lesser title than Duke of..., it would be construed as an act of hostility towards Meghan.
The press would go wild, it would be compared to Wallis Simpson and the whole HRH flap.

I'm sure the Queen realizes this, and will take care that it doesn't happen.

Good point. I've thought about this myself and feel as if the Queen and her advisors would be aware of the kind narrative it would promote, even if this isn't the intent.

Thinking about it a little more now, perhaps this is a sentiment that could extend to Harry and Meghan's children, should they have any. And by that, I mean, maybe Harry will think twice about turning down HRH status for them. There are valid reasons for thinking he wouldn't want them styled as HRH, certainly. But the idea that they could feel some of the brunt of an "outsider" narrative, via their mother being a mixed-raced American, is something Harry may take into consideration. Now, maybe it will be a non-issue, particlarly if the Queen doesn't issue LPs and Charles isn't King for another decade or so. But it's worth noting right now, I think.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I was surprised when I first learned that "Prince" was not considered higher than a "Duke".

"Duke" is a peerage title, just like "Earl," "Marquess," "Baron," etc. As "Duke" is the highest ranking peerage in the UK, a duke outranks those other peerages. A prince outranks all of them, as "prince" is not a peerage. A royal prince outranks non-royal peers.

Why is Charles's primary title Prince of Wales instead of one of his Dukedoms?

Because Prince of Wales has been the title of the heir to the throne since before Henry VIII's time, so well over 600 years. Princes outrank Dukes, so the heir to the throne should have the highest possible rank short of King/Queen that can be bestowed on them.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I was surprised when I first learned that "Prince" was not considered higher than a "Duke". Why is Charles's primary title Prince of Wales instead of one of his Dukedoms? I just finished reading a couple of books on Queen Mary and it seemed that Queen Victoria preferred the title of Prince over any other. To keep this on topic, I think Harry will be granted a Dukedom.

A Prince/Princess is a commoner and can thus vote for and stand for election to the House of Commons.

A Peer of the realm can't sit in the Commons but can be elected to the House of Lords.

As a result it was William who made the big jump on their wedding day as he went from being a commoner to being a peer of the realm while Kate went from a commoner to a commoner.

Prince of Wales is a substantive title while 'Prince' itself is a style held by some people to show their relationship to the monarch. That is why Charles' senior title is Prince of Wales. That title isn't automatic either. He became a Duke the instant his mother became Queen.

Queen Victoria had to be told exactly what I said at the beginning - that if she didn't give her younger sons peerage titles that they would remain commoners and she wasn't going to allow that to happen. She also realised that it would be wrong to have a younger son stand for election to the House of Commons, and even worse - stand and lose.

Harry will get a title on his wedding day - whether it is a Dukedom and/ or Marquisate, and/or Earldom, and/or Viscountcy and/or Barony is still to be seen.

 

[angieuk]

So is the situation this way?

Prince George of Cambridge has 2 sons; both sons marry; only 1 wife is a Princess; the other is a Duchess.

Harry's children have 2 sons; both they're wives, are Duchesses; but their children remain Lord or Lady.

So if Harry's title is Duke of Sussex.
So Harry's grandchildren are Lady Jane Sussex?

But so confusing as George V's Sons wives were:

Princess Alice, Princess Marina? Excluding Wallace Simpson.

Daughters inherit only the LADY title; even with the new succession law?

 

[Mirabel]

But so confusing as George V's Sons wives were:

Princess Alice, Princess Marina? Excluding Wallace Simpson.

I think it's because Princess Alice and Princess Marina were born princesses, they had their own titles so did not become princesses when they married.

 

[angieuk]

Princess Alice; was originally LADY ALICE.

I think Harry will become Duke of Sussex.