Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence

[MarNoe]

It has been interesting reading some of the entries here. For one thing, too many people actually believe everything they read on the internet. They have my sympathy.

But let's face it - in the 21st century monarchies are a bit of an anachronism. I think that's part of why we're so fascinated by them. But, please, let's stop trying to judge these ancient "institutions" by 21st century standards. They really don't apply. In some ways I even regret the change about the order of succession to oldest rather than oldest boy. Yes I know that makes me a dinosaur. But that's just me. If something is done "because it always has been done that way" so what? Is change necessarily a good thing? Not always.

OK off my soap box.

 

[Rebafan81]

IMHO I hope that Princess Maxima becomes Queen Maxima!

 

[Artemisia]

It has already been announced that she will.

On a different topic, could someone tell me why the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien are no longer considered part of the Royal House, although they are still included in the Line of Succession?

 

[lucien]

Whatever the blabla from certain sides,it will be HM QUEEN Máxima,and nothing else.
There is no discussion,at all,just two nitwits brought the non-issue up,that is all.No-one
wants if different then for Máxima to have the title of QUEEN.Basta.Like we say here:
`A storm in a glass of water`..and not even that..

 

[Rebafan81]

HRH Princess Catharina-Amalia

I have been reading all the press releases regarding the new King and family and have been wondering if anyone else wished that Amalia would be older before she became HRH Princess Catarina-Amalia. I say this only because W-A is not inheriting the throne due to death or severe illness, I think this is a much better way but why couldn't HM waited a couple more years so the girls could at least be on the cusp of young teenagers instead of still being children. I know I am super sensitive regarding children being able to just enjoy their childhood plus I worry with all the added responsibilities for the new King and Queen, the 3 little beautiful Princess will be spending a lot less time with their parents, Princess Ariane is still such a young little girl, please don't take this as a knock on the custom or W-A, it's just my option and wondered what others thought. Thanks in advance for any posting to my thread!!

 

[NGalitzine]

I have been reading all the press releases regarding the new King and family and have been wondering if anyone else wished that Amalia would be older before she became HRH Princess Catarina-Amalia. I say this only because W-A is not inheriting the throne due to death or severe illness, I think this is a much better way but why couldn't HM waited a couple more years so the girls could at least be on the cusp of young teenagers instead of still being children. I know I am super sensitive regarding children being able to just enjoy their childhood plus I worry with all the added responsibilities for the new King and Queen, the 3 little beautiful Princess will be spending a lot less time with their parents, Princess Ariane is still such a young little girl, please don't take this as a knock on the custom or W-A, it's just my option and wondered what others thought. Thanks in advance for any posting to my thread!!

She has been HRH Princess C A since the day she was born. What is going to change in her life just because her father is now king? She already does photoshoots and receives press attention as the eldest daughter of The Prince of Orange. She will still continue going to school. The only real change will be a new palace to call home. It is not like she is suddenly going to take on a full schedule of official engagements. Presumably Queen Beatrix discussed her plans with WA and Maxima before any announcement was made and they must have felt he family was up for the challenges ahead.

 

[lucien]

I have been reading all the press releases regarding the new King and family and have been wondering if anyone else wished that Amalia would be older before she became HRH Princess Catarina-Amalia. I say this only because W-A is not inheriting the throne due to death or severe illness, I think this is a much better way but why couldn't HM waited a couple more years so the girls could at least be on the cusp of young teenagers instead of still being children. I know I am super sensitive regarding children being able to just enjoy their childhood plus I worry with all the added responsibilities for the new King and Queen, the 3 little beautiful Princess will be spending a lot less time with their parents, Princess Ariane is still such a young little girl, please don't take this as a knock on the custom or W-A, it's just my option and wondered what others thought. Thanks in advance for any posting to my thread!!

Sorry,Catharina -Amalia became HRH Princess Catharina-Amalia on december 7th 2003,the day she was born.You probably mean Princess of Orange.That's OK,no big differences for her at all untill she grows into her middle to late teens.Just like her grandmother and father in the same situation she can still do whatever she did thus far.No changes,except that she has the title that comes with being Heiress to the Throne in two months time,and a little.Gradually she will accompany her parents or any one of them to a official event,but that will be kept to a minimum.Chances are that they might see their parents more in the new situation then they did before.No worries.At all.Meanwhile she is a girl like any other,with friends and sports she loves,like field hockey etc

 

[kathia_sophia]

i never got the issue with Amalia bein' this young when becoming HRH The Princess of Orange, seariously, some royals are born Crown Prince/ss. CP Victoria became a crown princess as a toddler and even Moulay Hassan of Morocco (who was born in the same year as Amalia) was born a Crown Prince of Morocco.
even worse than that, Queen Wilhelmina was QUEEN at age 10, imagine if Amalia suddenly became Queen next year?

well, its not like it will dramatically change her, she will have her regular life, friends at school, sports, etc... she will not start right away doing engagements, maybe she'll have one/two per year (with her parents), but really, she would have them anyways even if her grandmother didnt abdicate (look at Elisabeth of Belgium, she had one in 2011 when she went to the opening of a children's hospital and gave her first speech, still shes not a crown princess yet).
what will change is a diferent place of home (though that probably happens to us all at least 1 time in our childhood), will get a new title and her parents will no longer be prince/ss but King and Queen (not that it actually matters since she called, calls and will call them dad and mom).
theres no big diference when you're 2nd or 1st in line to the throne when you're a child, since you wont do any major engagements for a while.
as for responsability, she was born a future Queen, still will be a future Queen when becoming HRH The Princess of Orange, responsability has haunted her since birth, so nothing will dramatically change for her.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

I have a question regarding the titles of Prince Constantijin's and Prince Friso's children (of the Netherlands):

*Why don't Prince Constantijin and Prince Friso's children have princely titles? They're grandchildren of Queen Beatrix so I don't understand why they aren't Princes or Princesses. Also, Beatrix's sisters' children were granted the title of Prince/Princess along with the style of Highness.

 

[Princess Robijn]

Titles in the Netherlands are only automatic for the King (Queen), a former King of Queen, and the heir to the throne, as well as their respective spouses. In order to limit the amount of Princes and Princess, it was decided that the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien were to be Count or Countess of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. This was established at the time of their engagement/wedding.

The children of Princess Margriet were born in a different time. It is not relevant for the children of Constantijn.

If the Queen wanted, she could give them a title, as the title Prince or Princess of Orange-Nassau can be given to all members of the Royal House. This is a personal title. If a Prince, who is a member of the Royal House, looses his rights to be part of the Royal House (i.e. Prince Friso), there is still the option of a personal title of Prince or Princess of Orange-Nassau. It has to be decided within 3 months after loosing membership of the Royal House.

 

[Artemisia]

Question 1:

Titles in the Netherlands are only automatic for the King (Queen), a former King of Queen, and the heir to the throne, as well as their respective spouses. In order to limit the amount of Princes and Princess, it was decided that the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien were to be Count or Countess of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. This was established at the time of their engagement/wedding.

The children of Princess Margriet were born in a different time. It is not relevant for the children of Constantijn.
...

A question about membership in the Dutch Royal House. I noticed that while Constantijn and Laurentien's children are still in the Line of Succession, they are no longer members of the Royal House. Is there any particular reason for that? And, since they are no longer members of the Royal House and never held Princely titles, could they (in theory) be made Prince/Princesses of Orang-Nassau?

 

[Princess Robijn]

A question about membership in the Dutch Royal House. I noticed that while Constantijn and Laurentien's children are still in the Line of Succession, they are no longer members of the Royal House. Is there any particular reason for that? And, since they are no longer members of the Royal House and never held Princely titles, could they (in theory) be made Prince/Princesses of Orang-Nassau?

It's called the principle of proximity of blood. In this case it means that only those within three degrees of kinship can succeed and that only those within two degrees of kinship are members of the Royal House. (Of course this also includes his or her spouse.)

Technically, the Queen can make them Princesses and Prince now (Article 9.2*), or King Willem-Alexander can make them Princesses and Prince within 3 months after becoming King. Of course it won't be an issue, because if the Queen wanted them to be Prince or Princess, she would have arranged it before the wedding of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien.

If the Queen would choose to create them Princesses and Prince, IMO it would have to be confirmed by King Willem-Alexander as they will no longer be part of the Royal House after the abdication of Queen Beatrix. But I could be wrong about the need for confirmation. It's from the same law I mentioned HERE.** Within 3 months after loosing the right to be part of the Royal House, it has to be decided if the person it's about will have the personal title of Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau. The law does not specify as to why a member of the Royal family loses his or her membership of the Royal House. (Article 9.3*)

The title Count of Orange-Nassau (& Jonkheer van Amsberg) is hereditary for the male line though.

* wetten.nl - Wet- en regelgeving - Wet lidmaatschap koninklijk huis - BWBR0013729 -- Google Translation
** Google Translation lists those eligible for the personal title of Prince or Princess of Orange-Nassau as members of the Royal family. This is incorrect. The correct translation of the Dutch "Koninklijk Huis" is Royal House.

 

[Artemisia]

Thank you for the excellent explanation, Princess Robijn!
I was aware of three degrees of kinship in regards to the succession but not two degrees of kinship in regards to membership in the Royal House.

To be honest though I still don't see why Constantijn's children won't be members of the House though. Aren't they within two degrees of kinship to Willem-Alexander? And if they aren't, how is Princess Margriet eligible to remain a member of the Royal House?

Willem-Alexander -> Prince Constantijn -> Constantijn's children
Willem-Alexander -> Queen Beatrix -> Princess Margriet

 

[Artemisia]

That is what confuses me. By an Act of Parliament, the members of the Royal House are:
- The Monarch and his/her spouse
- The former Monarch (who abdicated) and his/her spouse
- The members of the Royal Family in the Line of Succession and their spouses.

Maurits and Bernhard are currently in the Line of Succession and members of the Royal House. They will cease to be in the succession line upon Willem-Alexander's accession and will also automatically lose membership of the Royal House. Princess Margriet is and will remain both in the Line of Succession and member of the Royal House. So far everything is clear. But then Prince Constantijn's children will lose their membership in the Royal House upon Willem-Alexander's accession, even though they will remain in the Line of Succession. I just don't see the logic behind that.


Just for the record, I take the information Constantijn's children will cease to be members of the Royal House directly from the official website:

From that moment on, under the Membership of the Royal House Act, the children of Princess Margriet and Professor Pieter van Vollenhoven and the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien will cease to be members of the Royal House

 

[Princess Robijn]

It's 2 different issues.

2 degrees of Kinships means the following in the case of Prince Constantijn's children:
Eloise, Claus-Casimir & Leonore -> Constantijn (1 degree) -> Beatrix (2 degrees) -> Willem-Alexander (3 degrees)

This means they will still be in line of succession to the throne (3 degrees of Kinship), but won't be members of the Royal House. (2 degrees)

As for Margriet and her oldest two sons. Article 3.1 from the Wet lidmaatschap Koninklijk Huis (link above) states that everyone who was an adult at the effective date of the Act (as well as their respective spouses) would remain a part of the Royal House as long as they were in line of succession. Therefor, Princess Margriet and her sons kept their membership of the Royal House with the Act of 2002. (With Prince Pieter-Christiaan and Prince Floris losing their memberships later on, because they didn't ask permission for their respective marriages.) Princess Margriet will remain in line of succession and therefor will also remain a member of the Royal House and Princes Maurits and Bernhard, no longer in line to the throne, will loose their membership of the Royal House.

I do agree with you (Artemisia) though. I see no logic in someone being in line of succession, but not a member of the Royal House. It's not like it's the line of succession to the British throne.

However, membership of the Royal House CAN be given by Royal Degree, providing he or she is in line of succession. (Membership can also be given to spouses) Article 4. This does need to be approved by the Raad van State (= Council of State)

That is what confuses me. By an Act of Parliament, the members of the Royal House are:
- The members of the Royal Family in the Line of Succession and their spouses.

This is incorrect, it states:
Those who are in line of succession [and spouses], provided that they are not further then 2 degrees Kinship [apart from the King*]

* is insinuated, but not actually stated in Article 1a.

 

[Artemisia]

That makes sense now. Once more, thank you very much for the detailed explanation.
I have to say though it would have been more logical to apply the same three degrees of kinship rule to inclusion in both the Line of Succession and the Royal House.

 

[Princess Robijn]

You're welcome

 

[castell]

Will Maxima be granted the Privilège du Blanc (to wear white) when she meets the Pope as a Catholic Queen? Like Queen Sofia or Queen Paola?

Recently Charlene of Monaco wore white when she met Pope Benedict, altough Grace always wore black when she met the Pope.
The Vatican's Press office has confirmed in its statement that Charlene was allowed to wear white, which means that the Privilege of White was extended to her too.

 

[Artemisia]

Highly unlikely.
The privilège du blanc only extends to female Catholic Monarchs or wives of Catholic Monarchs.

Although Maxima herself remains a Catholic, her husband will not be a Catholic Monarch so the privilege should not be granted to her. Charlene is a wife of a Catholic Sovereign (not a King but a Sovereign Prince) and as such it wasn't as much breaking as stretching the rule to grant her the privilège du blanc.

 

[cepe]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, so please move if I've made a mistake.

Queen Beatrix has many honours, including foreign ones such as the Order of the Garter and the Order of the Golden Fleece. Does she keep them once she has abdicated? I'm assuming she does.

 

[Artemisia]

Those honours were bestowed upon Beatrix personally (and not just in her capacity as a Monarch) so she will most certainly keep all of them, including Order of the Garter, Order of St. Olav, Royal Victorian Order, Order of the Elephant, and others.

 

[AnnaNotherThing]

What will Princess Maxima's title be? Queen Maxima?

 

[kathia_sophia]

Yes, in less than 3 weeks she will be HM Queen Maxima.

 

[imojeen]

will queen beatrix be named as princess or dowager queen after abdication?

 

[Lumutqueen]

will queen beatrix be named as princess or dowager queen after abdication?

Princess Beatrix.

 

[Dutchy]

In the Netherlands it´s tradition, the queen will named after her abdication princess. Look also to the past: After her abdication In 1948 Queen Wilhelmina was named Princess Wilhelmina and in 1980 Queen Juliana´s title after abdication was Princess. Currently now they rest in the Royal tomb as Queen. I think Emma ( the mother of Wilhelmina) was the only one in the Dutch Royal History who has the title Queen Mother.

 

[Stefan]

In the Netherlands it´s tradition, the queen will named after her abdication princess. Look also to the past: After her abdication In 1948 Queen Wilhelmina was named Princess Wilhelmina and in 1980 Queen Juliana´s title after abdication was Princess. Currently now they rest in the Royal tomb as Queen. I think Emma ( the mother of Wilhelmina) was the only one in the Dutch Royal History who has the title Queen Mother.

What about Queen Anna Pavlovna?. She remained Queen after the death of her husband but was she also known as Queen Mother?

 

[lucien]

What about Queen Anna Pavlovna?. She remained Queen after the death of her husband but was she also known as Queen Mother?

No,this daughter of Tsar Paul was not known as Queen Mother,that only happened with Queen Mother Emma,or Queen Regent..as that was a title she was known by as well.After her,starting with Queen Wilhelmina,they reverted to the title Princess as to emphasize that for the Constitution the Monarch is "dead" immediatly after the Abdication.

 

[Xigua]

A slightly different, but related query, please. How was precedence determined for the seating arrangements in the Nieuwe Kerke, and elsewhere during the enthronement events? For instance, how would it be decided where HRH The Prince of Wales should be seated, in contrast with (for example) Albert II of Monaco?

 

[Lumutqueen]

A slightly different, but related query, please. How was precedence determined for the seating arrangements in the Nieuwe Kerke, and elsewhere during the enthronement events? For instance, how would it be decided where HRH The Prince of Wales should be seated, in contrast with (for example) Albert II of Monaco?

Here's a picture of the event which shows who sat where;
General View During The Inauguration Ceremony Of King
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail...uration-ceremony-of-king-news-photo/167806278