New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[akina21]

Joachim said his alternate proposal was that the children lose them at age 25. He thought it was being considered. As he said "Athena is 11 in January". Clearly the timescale ended up being vastly different.

I find even that proposal stupid . I would not have done anything to the current grandchildren (both Joachim's and Frederik's kids) and then restrict the prince/ss title to the children of the heir (Christian's future children ) while the rest get's the count/ess title

 

[FigTree]

I find even that proposal stupid . I would not have done anything to the current grandchildren (both Joachim's and Frederik's kids) and then restrict the prince/ss title to the children of the heir (Christian's future children ) while the rest get's the count/ess title

That’s essentially what is happening. Someone has to be the first. If they were going to loose them when they married this whole thing looks ridiculous. Just get rid of them anyway. She may have had to give a horrendous knife blow but the Queen was right.

 

[Muhler]

Quoted from Iolanthe:

"CNN spoke with Alexandra's press secretary.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/29/europ...ntl/index.html

A few interesting parts:

Quote:
“She [Alexandra] can’t believe why and why now, because there’s no good reason. They would lose their titles anyway when they get married one day. Her sons are young men so maybe they might get married in the near future so why shouldn’t it wait until that day so that the titles would disappear on a happy day?”
Quote:
She said the children only learned of the change in their titles in recent days, adding: “Back in May he (Prince Joachim) was told that they might remove their titles when they turn 25 and then he didn’t hear any more until a few days ago.”
Quote:
Responding to the palace’s explanation that this will enable the youngsters to lead a more normal life, she added: “They will never get a normal life. If they do something very stupid it will always come back on the family.”
Quote:
“It’s just their loss of identity and it’s very hard for little children and young men. As Prince Nikolai said to me, ‘what will they write in my passport now?’”

---------

- Oh do shut up, Alexandra!

What will they write in my passport? - Indeed!
What did he write when he bought something online? First name: Prins. Last name: Nikolai?
Of course he didn't. He likely used the name Nikolai Frederiksborg or Nikolai Monpezat.

Alexandra just earned a third whack on the head with my shovel.

As if the international audience, let alone an American audience will sympathize with them.

 

[Alisa]

I cannot help but think of how professionally Madeleine and Carl Philip acted when the decision was made to remove HRH from their children's title.

They acted with more maturity than Joachim and company. Even if Joachim and Alexandra didn't agree with the decision- going to the press and voicing your disdain for the decision isn't the way to go. Now everyone knows their is a rift and contention in the royal family and house.

Perhaps it's time Alexandra loses her title since she is so vocal in opposition of the new changes.

 

[akina21]

That’s essentially what is happening. Someone has to be the first. If they were going to loose them when they married this whole thing looks ridiculous. Just get rid of them anyway. She may have had to give a horrendous knife blow but the Queen was right.

And the first should have been the future children of Isabella , Josephine and Vincent .

 

[Sister Morphine]

"What will they write in my passport now?"

Gee, Nikolai, I don't know...how about your name? See, this is what I was talking about. If you care so much about a title that you're having a borderline existential crisis over what will be written in your passport moving forward, there's a disconnect somewhere.

 

[FigTree]

And the first should have been the future children of Isabella , Josephine and Vincent .

Why? Time moves fast and we are probably years away from that and in recent years it has b come increasing obvious that royal families need to slim to survive and to keep relevant. No one on the street will actually care about the titles of four incredibly wealthy and privileged people.

If Charles III stripped Beatrice and Eugenie aineould probably think will it’s probably right.

 

[Andrew 24]

They probably used Nikolai til Denmark as it was his name.

 

[Prinsara]

Alexandra just earned a third whack on the head with my shovel.

As if the international audience, let alone an American audience will sympathize with them.

*raises hand from across the Atlantic*

Muhler, if some random government functionary called you last week and told you you had to change your name starting from New Year's, how would you feel?

Maybe go after them with the shovel first.

Loyalty is earned. And reciprocal! Not absolute. I don't know what the Danish words for clusterf*ck (or SNAFU/TARFU/FUBAR) are, but I bet they're good ones.

 

[FigTree]

Gee, Nikolai, I don't know...how about your name? See, this is what I was talking about. If you care so much about a title that you're having a borderline existential crisis over what will be written in your passport moving forward, there's a disconnect somewhere.

Have a cry in private, no one is saying you would probably not feel so great for a bit BUT a life has not been taken away from them. They don’t do duties and are essentially private individuals.

 

[Muhler]

I cannot help but think of how professionally Madeleine and Carl Philip acted when the decision was made to remove HRH from their children's title.

They acted with more maturity than Joachim and company. Even if Joachim and Alexandra didn't agree with the decision- going to the press and voicing your disdain for the decision isn't the way to go. Now everyone knows their is a rift and contention in the royal family and house.

Perhaps it's time Alexandra loses her title since she is so vocal in opposition of the new changes.

Well, she sure ain't helping Joachim mending the rift in the family.
Nor is she helping Frederik in being a mediator - if he is trying to do that.

She's if anything actually more likely to get Joachim sacked officially by an irate QMII.

The ducks in the local pond in the village where I live who would have handled this way more maturely than what we have seen QMII, Alexandra (in particular!) Joachim and Nikolai doing these past 24 hours.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll go rereading the latest electrical and heating bills, that is way more cheerful reading then reading about this soap
opera that the DRF has turned into.

 

[Andrew 24]

Gee, Nikolai, I don't know...how about your name? See, this is what I was talking about. If you care so much about a title that you're having a borderline existential crisis over what will be written in your passport moving forward, there's a disconnect somewhere.

But they do not care about title but about their name which is Nikolai til Denmark. No Fredensborg, no Oldenburg or Glucksburg.

 

[FigTree]

Well, she sure ain't helping Joachim mending the rift in the family.
Nor is she helping Frederik in being a mediator - if he is trying to do that.

She's if anything actually more likely to get Joachim sacked officially by an irate QMII.

The ducks in the local pond in the village where I live who would have handled this way more maturely than what we have seen QMII, Alexandra (in particular!) Joachim and Nikolai doing these past 24 hours.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll go rereading the latest electrical and heating bills, that is way more cheerful reading then reading about this soap
opera that the DRF has turned into.

No heating till November is my motto.

I think the Queen has been fine. She was obviously encountering resistance and just had to it. They rest should have behaved professionally.

 

[Prinsara]

Well, she sure ain't helping Joachim mending the rift in the family.
Nor is she helping Frederik in being a mediator - if he is trying to do that.

She's if anything actually more likely to get Joachim sacked officially by an irate QMII.

The ducks in the local pond in the village where I live who would have handled this way more maturely than what we have seen QMII, Alexandra (in particular!) Joachim and Nikolai doing these past 24 hours.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll go rereading the latest electrical and heating bills, that is way more cheerful reading then reading about this soap
opera that the DRF has turned into.

I expect Alexandra will turn in her title at New Year's, to go along with her sons.

As for Jokke being "sacked", what makes you think he wants to stay anymore? (Whether he'll come back when Fred is king, who knows.)

 

[Adda]

It is indeed time for Alexandra to lose her title and be banished from anything related to the DRF. The nerve she has! She's reacting as if Nikolai and Felix had their human rights violated in any form.
She has managed rather well as a Countess, hasn't she? so what's the drama with the boys being Counts? I'm pretty sure they will survive and continue to grow, hopefully, without her influence.

 

[sophie25]

Why were the boys going to live their titles when they got married. Couldn't their wives still have been princesses and their kids counts/countesses?

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Some observations on today's comments:

What shocks me most about today's revelations is that QMII didn't bother to personally tell Joachim about her decision. At the end of the day, no matter how many discussions they have or could've had, QMII calls the shots and if she wants the titles stripped, there's not much Joachim could've done about it. BUT the least she could've done was to own up to her actions and tell him herself instead of making her Court Marshal do the dirty work for her.

If I was to make an educated guess at what's happened, I'd say Joachim probably started out objecting to the initial suggestion that the titles would be removed once the kids each turned 25 (based on the fact that nothing came of it – if both parties agreed that this was the way ahead in May, I imagine it would've been put into action already back then). As someone who doesn't really see the point in rescinding the titles at all, I, for one, don't blame him.

Since the two parties didn't find an agreement over the span of nearly 6 months, I imagine Joachim might've dug his heels in and insisted that the children's titles shouldn't be removed retroactively at all where QMII and her people have been adamant that sooner or later the titles would have to go. Whether QMII has received news recently that has caused her to speed up her decision, whether QEII's death has prompted her just to get things like this sorted in time, or whether she was just fed up with the question being stalled, I imagine she decided to get it over with and take them away at once.

Which brings me back to the hopelessness of the lack of communication between QMII and Joachim. Going off of his interview at least, it seems Joachim would've been happier with the "titles go at 25" solution than the "everyone's titles go in 2023" solution. If QMII (or ANYONE really) had communicated to Joachim that he could choose between one or the other, the decision could potentially have gone down a bit smoother.

Personally, now or at 25... I don't really see the difference to be honest. I think both are wrong but waiting till they each turn 25 is just dragging out the inevitable. But if that had made Joachim and the kids happier, I don't see why not?

______________

Although I think it's hard for the children not to take her decision personally, I really don't think QMII has meant any harm with it. I think it's important to note that QMII (and Frederik for that matter) has never been in a spare's shoes. As someone else mentioned previously, she has spoken indirectly about how her title has prevented her from pursuing her dream studies in archaeology. Stripping her grandchildren of their titles is very harsh but I think she genuinely thinks she did it with especially the little two's best interests at heart.

I've seen some people are upset that QMII didn't talk to the kids about it between May and a week-ish ago, but I don't really think we can blame her for not doing that as seemingly Joachim didn't think to involve them either.

As for the identity comments, I understand where they're coming from but they're not doing themselves any favours with those. As I saw someone say on another message board, if your identity is inextricably linked to your title, maybe untying them from the title so they can form an identity of their own is not a bad thing. Better to phrase it that all four kids acknowledge what a privilege their titles are and explain how proud they are to carry them, methinks.

 

[tihkon2]

No heating till November is my motto.

I think the Queen has been fine. She was obviously encountering resistance and just had to it. They rest should have behaved professionally.

I don't. If what they say is true, then she was cowardly or imperious or callous, by not deigning to work this all out privately BEFORE she let it be released publicly. So, she reaps what she sowed as far as I'm concerned. No respect for your son and grandchildren's feelings? Well, none for yours then.

 

[Muhler]

*raises hand from across the Atlantic*

Muhler, if some random government functionary called you last week and told you you had to change your name starting from New Year's, how would you feel?

Maybe go after them with the shovel first.

Loyalty is earned. And reciprocal! Not absolute. I don't know what the Danish words for clusterf*ck (or SNAFU/TARFU/FUBAR) are, but I bet they're good ones.

Well, according to the first draft Nikolai was to face that problem within a couple of years anyway.

It's her arguments that are wrong.

You and all who are here on this forum know about Joachim, Alexandra the children and so on. You know the background story.
Most who watch CNN, read Daily Mail, The guardian and so on don't.
- To them a unknown countess is complaining about her sons who are princes, but not actively working for the Danish royal family and have no intention of doing so, is losing their titles and created counts instead.

That's a no-winner.

It's no secret that Frederik from time to time have used the surname Hansen, when he want's to be incognito, but surely also for practical reasons.
I cannot image Nikolai hasn't used the surname of Frederiksborg or Monpezat from time to time as well.

 

[akina21]

Why? Time moves fast and we are probably years away from that and in recent years it has b come increasing obvious that royal families need to slim to survive and to keep relevant. No one on the street will actually care about the titles of four incredibly wealthy and privileged people.

If Charles III stripped Beatrice and Eugenie aineould probably think will it’s probably right.

Exactly because we're years away from that. Joachim's kids have just been very publically demoted by their grandma for what feels like sh*ts and giggles .

 

[Sister Morphine]

Exactly because we're years away from that. Joachim's kids have just been very publically demoted by their grandma for what feels like sh*ts and giggles .

That's more than a bit much. That would imply QMII did it because she hates them, was bored, did it on a dare, or is a secret sociopath.

They were demoted because there's no reason for them to continue carrying titles if they don't and will not work for the DRF. The way QMII handled it was wrong, but the fact it happened is not.

 

[Muhler]

I expect Alexandra will turn in her title at New Year's, to go along with her sons.

As for Jokke being "sacked", what makes you think he wants to stay anymore? (Whether he'll come back when Fred is king, who knows.)

True, I don't think he's particularly inclined to remain as a working royal, certainly not under QMII.
But there is of course a difference between "resigning" and "being resigned."

If QMII and Joachim have fallen completely out (Alexandra, Joachim and Nikolai talking to everybody and their grandmother won't help!) and QMII is more than annoyed right now, the Chief of Court may soon make another call to Joachim...

Can Joachim return to the fold once Frederik takes over?
Depends I imagine on how bitter Joachim is at that point.
It depends very much on whether Frederik was involved in all this and to what extent.
Another question now is what will Joachim and Marie do, once his time as an attache in Paris is over?

- I sure ain't having fun reading about all this.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Agreed. This is one reason why I’ve never liked the idea of doing this to the York girls- or anyone else in the BRF that are old enough to understand. This is the kind of mess you get (...)

I think that's a nonsensical argument. Even if you're not old enough to understand in the moment the titles are stripped from you, you will one day be old enough to understand and go through the exact same feelings the people who are "old enough" go through.

CNN spoke with Alexandra's press secretary.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/29/europe/denmark-queen-grandchildren-scli-intl/index.html

A few interesting parts:

“She [Alexandra] can’t believe why and why now, because there’s no good reason. They would lose their titles anyway when they get married one day. Her sons are young men so maybe they might get married in the near future so why shouldn’t it wait until that day so that the titles would disappear on a happy day?”

That's... not even entirely true though, is it? I was fairly sure they'd only lose their titles if they didn't obtain permission to marry from the regent. And if all 3 boys obtained permission to marry, they could all, theoretically speaking, pass on their titles under the current rules. Or am I wrong?

 

[angieuk]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...-Nikolai-tells-pain-stripped-royal-title.html

Prince Nikolai has given a public statement.

I think the whole thing has been handed very badly.

 

[Iolanthe]

That's... not even entirely true though, is it? I was fairly sure they'd only lose their titles if they didn't obtain permission to marry from the regent. And if all 3 boys obtained permission to marry, they could all, theoretically speaking, pass on their titles under the current rules. Or am I wrong?

I had the same impression as you, that's why I think it's an interesting sentence. Maybe they were under the impression that it would be so (because of Princess Elisabeth maybe)? But why would they have thougt that? It's a pretty detailed (and for them obviously personally important) aspect to just assume without really knowing. Weird.

 

[JR76]

That's... not even entirely true though, is it? I was fairly sure they'd only lose their titles if they didn't obtain permission to marry from the regent. And if all 3 boys obtained permission to marry, they could all, theoretically speaking, pass on their titles under the current rules. Or am I wrong?

That's how it would have worked up until yesterday. Unless there are other family agreements that we don't know about.

 

[Izzie]

True, I don't think he's particularly inclined to remain as a working royal, certainly not under QMII.
But there is of course a difference between "resigning" and "being resigned."

If QMII and Joachim have fallen completely out (Alexandra, Joachim and Nikolai talking to everybody and their grandmother won't help!) and QMII is more than annoyed right now, the Chief of Court may soon make another call to Joachim...

Can Joachim return to the fold once Frederik takes over?
Depends I imagine on how bitter Joachim is at that point.
It depends very much on whether Frederik was involved in all this and to what extent.
Another question now is what will Joachim and Marie do, once his time as an attache in Paris is over?

- I sure ain't having fun reading about all this.

My question is what happened and so quickly. Like I've said, just about 3-4 weeks ago Joachim was surprising his mother at the military event along with Frederik. They were at the jubilee events. She thank him and Marie for their support.

Things seems more settled than they had been in a while. And then all of a sudden in a span of 5-6 days it all goes super down south in a handbasket?

IF for arguments sake Joachim did something to QMII (did he kick her sausage dog?) and she wanted to punish him...well it seems she's doing the kids to do it. And that is cold, callous and vindictive.

I mean just a few days ago Joachim was in Denmark serving as rigforstander for 2 days! Specifically 9/26 and 9/27. Marie was recently in DK attending some engagements as well.

So sorry, this makes zero sense that it went for zero to 150 like this with that press release. It seems very rash, irrational, without forethought or afterthought.

I am starting to side eye Frederik suddenly having to rush home from NYC during such an important trip for him having anything to do with COVID or needing plan that gov't dinner which for the most part should have been already planned and he could have monitored it from NYC or Mary could have. Now I think he was called home to try to reason with his mother and maybe try to talk to his brother. I have a gut feeling that the rift is NOT so much between brothers.

And again...I don't understand why QMII cannot be criticized or called out for this mess. She is NOT infallible. And btw: the PRESS RELEASE is what all this in the public domain. However, since SHE put it out into the public..the affected individuals are responding in kind. It is a normal human reaction. But let's not pretend that Joachim or any of the kids were leaking stuff to the press beforehand. On the contrary....that's why the drop of that press release bomb has fallen like the turd it is. Because there was NO hint of anything like this going on.

Well, now poor Mary is the first one having to face the media tomorrow at her event regarding the mental health of young people (how ironic). I hope she's had someone on HER team help her come up with how to respond to press question...anyone but Lene B.

 

[Prinsara]

Another question now is what will Joachim and Marie do, once his time as an attache in Paris is over?

- I sure ain't having fun reading about all this.

Was it perhaps someone's move to force Jokke and family out? Not QMII, but one of her "clever" advisors? He's been getting pushed further and further out on that limb before it might have snapped yesterday...

What will they do...? I don't know, but please please please please please not become the Danish Sussexes. Please.

(See what you started, Daisy? What a can't see the forest for the trees move. :sad)

 

[ppetrica]

I don't. If what they say is true, then she was cowardly or imperious or callous, by not deigning to work this all out privately BEFORE she let it be released publicly. So, she reaps what she sowed as far as I'm concerned. No respect for your son and grandchildren's feelings? Well, none for yours then.

I don't agree.
How do you know that the Queen didn't want to work this out by talking it through with Joachim and his children first?

I do believe that in lack of arguments that would change the Queen's mind, Joachim's strategy was to stall it for as long as possible until the Queen simply gives up. Maybe she did want to talk to the grandchildren herself but Joachim asked her not to until he, as a parent, talks to them first. Maybe 5 days ago she finally told Joachim that she won't wait any longer and in 5 days she is going public with her decision, but Joachim continued to ignore her thinking she'll give up in the end.
Margrethe is a very intelligent, discerning and diplomatically experienced woman, more so then Joachim in my opinion. So I think this "PR disaster" as many now call it is more of Joachim's doing then the Queen's.


Joachim and his family's perception of duties and responsibilities of being royal obviously differs from the Queen's perception. The Queen, Frederik and Christian are the ones in the royal family who are expected to always have the well being of the monarchy as their top priority, while Joachim has the privilege to think more about himself and his family.

 

[Izzie]

I think that's a nonsensical argument. Even if you're not old enough to understand in the moment the titles are stripped from you, you will one day be old enough to understand and go through the exact same feelings the people who are "old enough" go through.



That's... not even entirely true though, is it? I was fairly sure they'd only lose their titles if they didn't obtain permission to marry from the regent. And if all 3 boys obtained permission to marry, they could all, theoretically speaking, pass on their titles under the current rules. Or am I wrong?

I think the losing titles at 25 was allegedly the plan that was presented in May of this year regarding their titles. That each grandchild would lose their title upon turning 25. At least that is how I've understood it.