The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations 2: Sep 2022-

[Marengo]

Arms of The United Kingdom​

Welcome to the thread The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations, Part 2

Commencing September 1st, 2022 ​

The previous thread can be found here
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[An Ard Ri]

I wonder if the King will start to issue Royal Family Order of Charles III or will he continue the practice?

 

[muriel]

I wonder if the King will start to issue Royal Family Order of Charles III or will he continue the practice?

I do hope he continues with the RFO's. Query whether these will be issued before the Coronation though?

 

[Iluvbertie]

Historically they have been issued before coronations to eligible members of the family. I am expecting him to so honour Camilla, Catherine, Charlotte, Meghan (yes Meghan as she is his daughter-in-law), Lilibet, Sophie, Anne, Birgitte and Alexandra. He may also give it to Katherine Kent.

 

[yukari]

Would we ever know whether Charlotte, Meghan, and Lili received the late Queen RFO?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Would we ever know whether Charlotte, Meghan, and Lili received the late Queen RFO?

Only when they are attending a gala-event at which ladies can wear Orders. So when The Duchess of Sussex attends a gala banquet at the eve of the Coronation, we will see her with this decoration (and at the Coronation itself, of course).

 

[An Ard Ri]

I do hope he continues with the RFO's. Query whether these will be issued before the Coronation though?

Not sure as the late queen started issuing them in 1952

1952: Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother
1952: Queen Mary
1952: The Princess Margaret
1952: The Princess Royal (Princess Mary)
1952: The Duchess of Gloucester (Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester)
1952: Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent
1952: Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone
1952: Princess Alexandra of Kent

 

[muriel]

Historically they have been issued before coronations to eligible members of the family. I am expecting him to so honour Camilla, Catherine, Charlotte, Meghan (yes Meghan as she is his daughter-in-law), Lilibet, Sophie, Anne, Birgitte and Alexandra. He may also give it to Katherine Kent.

It will be interesting to know what actually does get an RFO. My guess is that the first batch has to be Camilla, Catherine, Anne and Sophie. Birgitte and Alexandra to follow. I do not think Charlotte will receive it till she is 18 or even 21.

I am not sure Meghan will be receiving one. She may be the King's daughter-in-law, but she has done little to endear herself to Charles in recent years.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Charles is 73 (74 next month) and I am sure he will want Charlotte to have his RFO, especially as I suspect she already has QEII's so I am sure he will give it to her in the first batch. I know Charles can be petty and vindictive but I don't think he would be so small-minded as to deny his own daughter-in-law. I don't see any other non-working royals getting it so none for the York, Louise or Zara, even if they do have QEII's.

 

[Denville]

Charles is 73 (74 next month) and I am sure he will want Charlotte to have his RFO, especially as I suspect she already has QEII's so I am sure he will give it to her in the first batch. I know Charles can be petty and vindictive but I don't think he would be so small-minded as to deny his own daughter-in-law. I don't see any other non-working royals getting it so none for the York, Louise or Zara, even if they do have QEII's.

where is the evidence that Charles is petty and vindictive?

 

[Tilia C.]

Queen Elizabeth didn't bestow the RFO automatically on her daughters-in-law. Sarah never received it, Sophie got it in 2004, Camilla in 2007. Catherine even had to wait till 2017. Therefore, I don't think that Charles would bestow his own FO on non-working family members, not even his own daughter-in-law.

And is there any indication that Zara, Beatrice, Eugenie and Louise have there grandmother's family order? I don't think that the family orders are a mark of the personal affection of a grandmother, but rather a mark of appreciation of the work done for the firm.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Queen Elizabeth didn't bestow the RFO automatically on her daughters-in-law. Sarah never received it, Sophie got it in 2004, Camilla in 2007. Catherine even had to wait till 2017. Therefore, I don't think that Charles would bestow his own FO on non-working family members, not even his own daughter-in-law.

And is there any indication that Zara, Beatrice, Eugenie and Louise have there grandmother's family order? I don't think that the family orders are a mark of the personal affection of a grandmother, but rather a mark of appreciation of the work done for the firm.

Each monarch has their own reason for giving it. Note that The Queen, aged 9 had George V's RFO at his Jubilee. Princess Alexandra was given George VI's RFO when she was 16 and at the same age she received QEII's - she was still a school girl.

There is no hard and fast rule. The Queen gave it to Anne when Anne was 18/19 so basically as she finished school but a decade before she starting being a full-time working royal.

Charles also won't have as long to have people 'prove' themselves to him.

I can see him having a burst of giving them all out and then no more in his reign.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

We shall see what happens IF Charles decides to have his own RFO.

George V and George VI bestowed it even to children and seemed to regard it as a family membership insignia - while Elizabeth II regarded it as a ”Thank you for loyal service” insignia…

William IV choosed to create buckle’s with his and Queen Adelaide’s monogram instread to be worn as brooches or bracelets

 

[Blog Real]

I think Charles will get his own RFO, but only those family members he feels deserve that distinction, like Camilla or Catherine, Anne and Sophie.

 

[Iluvbertie]

We shall see what happens IF Charles decides to have his own RFO.

George V and George VI bestowed it even to children and seemed to regard it as a family membership insignia - while Elizabeth II regarded it as a ”Thank you for loyal service” insignia…

William IV choosed to create buckle’s with his and Queen Adelaide’s monogram instread to be worn as brooches or bracelets

Queen Elizabeth II didn't regard it as a 'thank you for loyal service' when she gave out most of them in 1952. Princess Alexandra was still at school. Princess Anne also got hers the year she finished school.

Mostly she gave it on her accession and to wives shortly after their marriages e.g. The Duchess of Kent (married 1961 and ROF also in 1961) and Gloucester (married 1972 and RFO in 1973. It was only after Diana, who received it in 1981, that she made 'married-ins' wait a number of years before giving it to them.

So only three received it as a 'thank you for loyal service' - Camilla, Sophie and Catherine.

 

[Stefan]

Dow we know when Princesses Alice and Maria got the one of George V. At ther Wedding's or later but then there would have been not much time for Alice to get as the King did only 2,5 months after her Wedding

 

[Iluvbertie]

George V gave it to Alice at the time of her wedding most likely. Same with Marina - when she married. Until Diana that was the norm - on or shortly after the marriage.

Marie-Christine was the only other one who didn't get it but as marriage to her meant Prince Michael had to give up his place in the line of succession (later restored) I am confident that is part of the reason as well as neither of them being working royals.

 

[wbenson]

There are now vacancies in the positions of Great Master of the Order of the Bath (previously the King, who is now sovereign of the order) and Grand Master of the Order of the British Empire (previously the Duke of Edinburgh). My expectation is that the Queen Consort and Prince of Wales will each get one of the positions.

If Camilla gets the Bath, she'll be one of only a handful of Dames Grand Cross in the order's history.

 

[Somebody]

Found this list of the Great Masters of the Order of the Bath, that might help us to figure out who might be a logical contender:

Great Masters of the Order of the Bath:

o 1725–1749: John Montagu (1690-1749), 2nd Duke of Montagu
o 1749–1767: vacant
o 1767–1827: Prince Frederick (1763-1827), Duke of York and Albany
o 1827–1830: Prince William (1765-1837), Duke of Clarence and St Andrews; since 1830 King William IV of Great Britain
o 1830–1837: vacant
o 1837–1843: Prince Augustus Frederick (1773-1843), Duke of Sussex
o 1843–1861: Albert, Prince Consort (1819-61)
o 1861–1897: vacant
o 1897–1901: Albert Edward (1841-1910), Prince of Wales; King Edward VII after 1901
o 1901–1942: Prince Arthur (1850-1942), Duke of Connaught and Strathearn
o 1942–1974: Prince Henry (1900-74), Duke of Gloucester
o 1974–2022: Charles (b. 1948), Prince of Wales

(Changed end date for Charles from 'present' to '2022')

So, most of the great masters were younger brothers of the monarch - but not all of them. So, next to Camilla and William, either Anne or Edward might also be an option.

And for the Order of the British Empire, the previous three grand masters are:

• Prince Edward, the Prince of Wales (1917–1936)
• Queen Mary (1936–1953)
• the Duke of Edinburgh (1953–2021)

So, the previous two grand masters were both the spouse of the monarch - and the very first was the Prince of Wales; so both Camilla and William are likely options.

If they were to divide the two between Camilla and William, my guess would be the Order of the Bath will go to William (he is already a member of the two more senior orders - and it was originally a military order) and the Order of the British Empire will go to Camilla. The description sounds like a good fit for her:

The Most Excellent Order of the British Empire is a British order of chivalry, rewarding contributions to the arts and sciences, work with charitable and welfare organisations, and public service outside the civil service.

 

[sophie25]

George V gave it to Alice at the time of her wedding most likely. Same with Marina - when she married. Until Diana that was the norm - on or shortly after the marriage.

Marie-Christine was the only other one who didn't get it but as marriage to her meant Prince Michael had to give up his place in the line of succession (later restored) I am confident that is part of the reason as well as neither of them being working royals.

No one knows why she didn't get it. The working royals thing wasn't even a "thing" back in 1978, it was only in the 1980's that the Queen stopped giving it out automatically. I hope it wasn't withheld because of PM's religion which I've always considered might have been the reason.

 

[HRHHermione]

No one knows why she didn't get it. The working royals thing wasn't even a "thing" back in 1978, it was only in the 1980's that the Queen stopped giving it out automatically. I hope it wasn't withheld because of PM's religion which I've always considered might have been the reason.

I honestly think it’s just that her… rather strong personality might not have been to the taste of her in-laws.

 

[Somebody]

No one knows why she didn't get it. The working royals thing wasn't even a "thing" back in 1978, it was only in the 1980's that the Queen stopped giving it out automatically. I hope it wasn't withheld because of PM's religion which I've always considered might have been the reason.

Her husband no longer being in the line of succession sounds like a likely (and acceptable) reason not to give her an order. For example, princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau (whose husband had to give up his place to marry her) also doesn't have a royal order.

 

[sophie25]

Her husband no longer being in the line of succession sounds like a likely (and acceptable) reason not to give her an order. For example, princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau (whose husband had to give up his place to marry her) also doesn't have a royal order.

The difference is that the RFO isn't an order of chivalry or was linked to royal duty at the time PM got married. It was then, as it had always been, a token given to royal women by the reigning monarch that recognised them as a member of the Royal family. There was, therefore, no obvious reason why the Queen didn't give her it and I did think it a bit mean that even after decades in the family she never did. It does make one wonder what the reason was but I suppose we will never know for sure.

 

[Somebody]

Her husband no longer being in the line of succession sounds like a likely (and acceptable) reason not to give her an order. For example, princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau (whose husband had to give up his place to marry her) also doesn't have a royal order.[/QUOTE

The difference is that the RFO isn't an order of chivalry or was linked to royal duty at the time PM got married. It was then, as it had always been, a token given to royal women by the reigning monarch that recognised them as a member of the Royal family. There was, therefore, no obvious reason why the Queen didn't give her it and I did think it a bit mean that even after decades in the family she never did. It does make one wonder what the reason was but I suppose we will never know for sure.

Thanks. Good point. It clearly is something that has changed its meaning under queen Elizabeth as it is no longer awarded upon entering the British royal family.

In recent history there are various wives of royal princes who never received it:
- Marie-Christine
- Sarah
- Meghan

Apparently, she decided that the ladies entering into her family first need to proof themselves.

However, also her granddaughters who are adults and princesses of the blood didn't receive the order. I doubt Charles will award them his.

 

[Iluvbertie]

We don't know if Meghan or her granddaughters didn't get the QEII royal order as there has been no event at which they were present where orders were worn to see if they received it.

 

[Tilia C.]

We don't know if Meghan or her granddaughters didn't get the QEII royal order as there has been no event at which they were present where orders were worn to see if they received it.

Strictly speaking, you are correct. But I see no reason whatsoever why Meghan should have received a family order right after her marriage when Sarah, Sophie, Camilla and Catherine had to wait for several years till they received it. (And well, in the case of Sarah, waiting was in vain.)

 

[Iluvbertie]

I agree that it is unlike but then again by the time Harry and Meghan married the Queen was already in her 90s so maybe she did decide to give it earlier. Until we see Meghan at an event where orders are worn by the women we simply don't know. It is even possible that we will never know as she may never attend such an event.

 

[Camsterlaird]

I suspect the RFO - if Charles has one - will be given to:
Camilla
Catherine (Princess of Wales)
Sophie
Anne
Birgitte
Katherine (Duchess of Kent)
and Alexandra ...
and maybe Charlotte

I suspect Meghan, Lilibet, Beatrice, Eugenie, Zara, Louise and Princess Michael will miss out.

 

[Roslyn]

I suspect the RFO - if Charles has one - will be given to:
Camilla
Catherine (Princess of Wales)
Sophie
Anne
Birgitte
Katherine (Duchess of Kent)
and Alexandra ...
and maybe Charlotte

I suspect Meghan, Lilibet, Beatrice, Eugenie, Zara, Louise and Princess Michael will miss out.

I wonder if Charlotte received one from QEII? I suspect she did, and I believe she will receive one from Grandpa. I also suspect Beatrice, Eugenie, Zara and Louise received one from their grandmother, and will receive one from Uncle Charles if he gives them out. If they did not get one from Elizabeth, they won't get one from Charles.

I am as sure as I can be that Meghan did not get one from QEII and will not receive one from Charles. As for Lilibet I am less certain. She might have if Elizabeth gave them to her other great-grand-children, but I doubt the others have them or will receive them from Charles.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I think Charles will limit his family order to working royals only so:

Camilla
Catherine
Sophie
Anne
Birgitte
Alexandra

maybe the Duchess of Kent as she is the wife of a working royal and is now retired from public life but she may get it.

I don't see him ever giving it to his nieces.

Charlotte may get it but I suspect that if he gives it to her he will also give it to Lilibet.

Of course as the non-working royals won't appear anywhere where they can wear the RFO I suspect we will never find out anyway.