The Protocol Thread

[Artemisia]

The flag hoisting is reserved for the birthdays of the following people:
- The Sovereign (the Queen)
- The Sovereign's Consort (Prince Philip)
- The Sovereign's children (Prince Charles, Prince Andrew, Prince Edward and Princess Anne)
- The wives of the Sovereign's children (Camilla and Sophie)
- The eldest son of the Prince of Wales (Prince William)
- The wife of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales and his spouse (Kate)

Harry is not the Sovereign's son or the Prince of Wales' eldest son, so his birthday is not in the list.
When Prince Charles becomes King, that will automatically change.

 

[PrincessofEurope]

Thank you for clearing that up - it was what i imagined would be the case and that it would change when Charles becomes King. So when that day comes there will be a big decrease in the number of flag days - Charles, Camilla, William, Kate, their first child, Harry and his future wife

 

[Iluvbertie]

When Charles is King the flags won't be raised for Andrew, Edward, Sophie or Anne anymore either.

When William is King, Harry will once again not have the flag raised.

It will only be done when he is the son of the monarch. If Charles predeceases The Queen then Harry will never be in that position.

 

[Artemisia]

Thank you for clearing that up - it was what i imagined would be the case and that it would change when Charles becomes King. So when that day comes there will be a big decrease in the number of flag days - Charles, Camilla, William, Kate, their first child, Harry and his future wife

You are welcome.
When Charles is King, the flags will be raised for the King (Charles), the Queen (Camilla), the Sovereign's children (William and Harry) and their wives (Kate and Harry's future wife), as well as William's eldest son (or possibly, given the impeding changes, his eldest child regardless of gender).

 

[padams2359]

I would think that Charles will let the flag continue for his brothers and sister because they have been all their lives. Was there still a flag day for Princess Margaret once QE2 accended?

 

[wbenson]

Was there still a flag day for Princess Margaret once QE2 accended?

It appears so, as her birthday wasn't removed from the regulations in Northern Ireland until 2002.

I also found a snippet from a book that listed the Duke of Gloucester's birthday as a flag day in 1957, 21 years after George V died. ETA: They were still flying on his birthday in 1969, as they had to be lowered when the Queen ordered them to half staff that day to mark President Eisenhower's death.

 

[padams2359]

Thank you wbenson. I figured such. Once you are added, it should be for life. I think BRF in general is more respectful of time than title then what most give them credit for. I mean Princess Alice, etc.

 

[royalistbert]

When Charles is King the flags won't be raised for Andrew, Edward, Sophie or Anne anymore either.

When William is King, Harry will once again not have the flag raised.

It will only be done when he is the son of the monarch. If Charles predeceases The Queen then Harry will never be in that position.

Charles has no say in the matter its up to Councils.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Martha Louise of Norway was told not to use her Princess title in her commercial endeavors. I believe that needs to happen to Harry & Meghan as well.

Out of curiosity, has the British Royal Family established any rules in relation to the commercial use of royal titles?

According to the websites of their respective employers, it seems the York princesses do not use their Princess titles at work. Was this their own decision, or were they told by "The Firm" that using them at work was not an option?

Which other members of the British Royal Family have earned money commercially, and did they use their titles for those endeavors?



Additionally, I am reposting my question from another thread here:

The old "royal goes first with commoner husband/fiance/other half following three steps behind is archaic other than events where strict protocol is followed, it makes no difference who goes first.

What is the normal etiquette in the British royal family for those who are in the same position? Do Jack Brooksbank, the Duchess of Gloucester, the Duchess of Kent, and Princess Michael of Kent take care to walk or be seated behind their spouses?

 

[Hallo girl]

Out of curiosity, has the British Royal Family established any rules in relation to the commercial use of royal titles?

According to the websites of their respective employers, it seems the York princesses do not use their Princess titles at work. Was this their own decision, or were they told by "The Firm" that using them at work was not an option?

Which other members of the British Royal Family have earned money commercially, and did they use their titles for those endeavors?



Additionally, I am reposting my question from another thread here:

I would say the birth royal takes the lead with the non birth royal following uon, i.e. Princess Anne walks before her husband but Catherine walks behind William.

 

[Pranter]

Except they don't follow these 'rules' most of the time. You can see a number of times Catherine walking ahead of William from their engagements.

LaRae

 

[CyrilVladisla]

I do not believe that Lord Frederick Windsor used his royal title when he was a male model.

 

[Mbruno]

The Queen’s younger sons are theoretically ahead for example of the Duke of Cambridge in the official order of precedence. However, I have never seen an officiall public event like a state dinner or a church service where that allegedly official precedence is observed. The Duke of Cambridge always walks in and is seated apparently with precedence over his uncles. Why is that ?

 

[Osipi]

Could it be that, actually, official precedence *is* being followed? With the sons of the monarch precedence, would it stand to reason that Edward would enter with members of his family and then Andrew, with his family and then Charles with his family and so on with the last and final arrival being HM, The Queen, herself. I may have a cloudy memory on this but it seems to be what I remember from arrivals at weddings.

Just cloudy thoughts on a cloudy day here. ?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

On February 11, the Government updated the list of designated days when it is compulsory for the national Union flag to be flown over government buildings in Great Britain.

Amy Sharpe of The Mirror reported that the decision was taken in consultation with Buckingham Palace and, according to an anonymous Whitehall source, it was taken due to the scandal around Prince Andrew. The update occurred four days before the Duke of York and Virginia Giuffre announced the settlement of their court case.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prince-andrew-hit-latest-humiliation-26215549

A Whitehall source said: “Some people were uneasy about the flag being flown and as Andrew’s birthday approached it became more pressing.

“With the scandal around him and the decisions taken by the Queen and the military, it was obvious what needed to be done. After consultations with the Palace, it was decided to update the guidance by removing his birthday from dates where a flag should be raised.”

However, not only the Duke of York's birthday (February 19) has been removed from the list. In 2021, the list of designated days for flying the Union Flag on UK government buildings included the birthdays of:

the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh
the Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall
the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge
the Duke of York
the Earl and Countess of Wessex
the Princess Royal

In the updated list for 2022, the designated birthdays have been trimmed down to the Queen and the Prince of Wales.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/designated-days-for-union-flag-flying

I wonder why the decision was taken to remove the birthdays of not only the Duke of York but also other royals apart from the queen and heir apparent. And will the birthday of Queen Camilla be designated as a flag day in the next reign?

 

[Somebody]

I assume they didn't want to single out the Duke of York and therefore also had to remove his siblings (and sister-in-law).

However, they could still have chose to at least keep both the monarch, the heir AND their spouses on the list.

All in all, they have 4 different days for the queen. That's quite excessive:
- Accession Day (Feb 6)
- Birthday (April 21)
- Coronation Day (June 2)
- Official birthday (June 2 - note: that her official birthday has been moved from the 'second Saturday in June' (June 11) to Coronation day for 2022)

The queen's wedding day, however, has been removed. It was still included for the 2021.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Would The Queen's Wedding Day have been removed from the list because Elizabeth II was now a widow?

 

[Osipi]

Would The Queen's Wedding Day have been removed from the list because Elizabeth II was now a widow?

That would be a good reason. ?

 

[Somebody]

Would The Queen's Wedding Day have been removed from the list because Elizabeth II was now a widow?

She was a widow on her wedding anniversary in 2021 as well... (that's why I pointed out that it still was included last year) The 2021 list was last adapted in June (so a few months after the Duke of Edinburgh's death - although his birthday was kept as a flag day as well as their wedding anniversary).

 

[Osipi]

Special days to fly the Union flag over government buildings seem strange to me. In the US, the stars and stripes are flown from sunup to sundown every single day of the year. If the flag is flying at night, it is required for it to be lit up as well. It's amazing to see that at the times when the flag is flown at half mast for some reason, they're flying half mast everywhere in public and private residences.

Then again, the stars and stripes are the only thing we have that is representing all the people and is apolitical.

 

[King of the Jungle]

It's sad that The Duke of York's poor judgement in behaviour and association brought ramifications to other family members. ie changes to flag flying protocol.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

However, not only the Duke of York's birthday (February 19) has been removed from the list. In 2021, the list of designated days for flying the Union Flag on UK government buildings included the birthdays of:

the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh
the Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall
the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge
the Duke of York
the Earl and Countess of Wessex
the Princess Royal

In the updated list for 2022, the designated birthdays have been trimmed down to the Queen and the Prince of Wales.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/designated-days-for-union-flag-flying

The same changes have been made to the list of royal birthdays designated for the tolling of the bells at Westminster Abbey. Prior to the Covid-19 pandemic, the bells were rung on the royal birthdays designated as flag days as well as the birthdays of the Cambridge children - but not, for some peculiar reason, the birthday of the Duke of Sussex.

The list of royal birthdays designated as bell-ringing days (already temporarily reduced by the pandemic) will now be permanently slimmed down to the Queen and the Prince of Wales, corresponding to the flag-flying days.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-f...rk-62nd-birthday-without-usual-royal-fanfare/

The bells of Westminster Abbey will not ring for the Duke, who missed out on the celebration last year due to Covid-19 restrictions but was given the honour in 2020, even after his Newsnight interview about his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein.

The decision, made temporarily in 2020, is “now permanent”, a source said.

A spokeswoman for Westminster Abbey said: “Due to the financial challenges posed by the Covid-19 pandemic, Westminster Abbey will ring its bells only for the birthdays of HM The Queen and HRH The Prince of Wales.”

The Telegraph article also includes a statement from the government spokeswoman on the changes to the flag flying protocol.

In 2020, after emails insisting that local authorities fly the flag for the Duke’s birthday were leaked, DCMS clarified that it was “no longer a requirement” for them to do so.

But the date, February 19, remained on the list of official “designated days” on its website until the end of 2021. On February 11, it discreetly removed the birthday for the 2022 calendar.

A government spokeswoman said: “Since 2021 the default position in Great Britain is that the Union Flag flies all year round unless another flag is being flown.

“However we routinely review the list of designated days for flying the Union Flag on UK Government Buildings.

“These changes make the days consistent with other commemorative events, such as gun salutes.”

I am not familiar with gun salute protocol in the UK. Am I to understand that gun salutes marking royal birthdays have always been restricted to the birthdays of the Queen and the Prince of Wales?

 

[Durham]

I am not familiar with gun salute protocol in the UK. Am I to understand that gun salutes marking royal birthdays have always been restricted to the birthdays of the Queen and the Prince of Wales?

Yes they have. Always just for the monarch (+ spouse) & their heir. Nobody else.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I assume they didn't want to single out the Duke of York and therefore also had to remove his siblings (and sister-in-law).

It's sad that The Duke of York's poor judgement in behaviour and association brought ramifications to other family members. ie changes to flag flying protocol.

The changes to flag flying and bell ringing protocols seem to reflect Queen Elizabeth's decision for ceremonial military uniforms not to be worn by the royal mourners at the Duke of Edinburgh's funeral in order not to single out the Duke of York and the Duke of Sussex.

I wonder if it will be necessary to change any other protocols for the same purpose. In particular, I expect the royal family's social media accounts will no longer acknowledge the Duke of York's birthdays from hereon. (Even in February 2021, months before the civil suit was filed, the accounts posted an #On This Day rather than the usual "Wishing a happy birthday" to mark Prince Andrew's birthday). Will they continue to post birthday wishes for other members of the royal family?

She was a widow on her wedding anniversary in 2021 as well... (that's why I pointed out that it still was included last year) The 2021 list was last adapted in June (so a few months after the Duke of Edinburgh's death - although his birthday was kept as a flag day as well as their wedding anniversary).

Given that the birthdays of other deceased royals have been removed, I wonder if the deceased Duke of Edinburgh's birthday and wedding day were left on the list of designated flag days for 2021 as a farewell gesture in the year of his death or if it was simply overlooked.

Yes they have. Always just for the monarch (+ spouse) & their heir. Nobody else.

Interesting. If the Duke of Edinburgh's birthday was included, then that answers my question about whether the Duchess of Cornwall's birthday is likely to be restored as a designated flag flying (and bell ringing) day in the next reign.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I wonder if it will be necessary to change any other protocols for the same purpose. In particular, I expect the royal family's social media accounts will no longer acknowledge the Duke of York's birthdays from hereon. (Even in February 2021, months before the civil suit was filed, the accounts posted an #On This Day rather than the usual "Wishing a happy birthday" to mark Prince Andrew's birthday). Will they continue to post birthday wishes for other members of the royal family?

The royal social media accounts indeed did not acknowledge the Duke of York's 62nd birthday.

Ed Southgate of The Sun wrote:

Buckingham Palace confirmed there has been no public message as the Duke marks his birthday today.

It is understood public birthday wishes are not made for non-working members of the Royal Family.​

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17704123/queen-prince-andrew-birthday-snub/

It certainly was not the case until now that "public birthday wishes are not made for non-working members of the Royal Family". Even Archie Mountbatten-Windsor's birthdays were marked by the royal family's social media accounts each year.

When is the next birthday of a non-working member of the Royal Family which was marked with a public message in past years? Was a public message posted on the Duchess of Kent's birthday (February 22) in 2021?

 

[LauraS3514]

It certainly was not the case until now that "public birthday wishes are not made for non-working members of the Royal Family". Even Archie Mountbatten-Windsor's birthdays were marked by the royal family's social media accounts each year.

When is the next birthday of a non-working member of the Royal Family which was marked with a public message in past years? Was a public message posted on the Duchess of Kent's birthday (February 22) in 2021?

Excluding Mrs. Kent (how she introduced herself to her music students) the next birthday of a non-working member is Princess Eugenie on March 23.

 

[MonacoRoyalFan]

Didn’t know where else to put this question forth but curious:

What do William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugene, Zara, etc call their royal aunt and uncles?

Do they call the Princess Royal Aunt Anne or just Anne? What do they call the Prince of Wales, simply Uncle Charles? Uncle Andrew?

 

[Prinsara]

William and Harry were on video in The Queen at 90 referring to her as just "Anne" (and laughing at the possibility of her wiping out as a small child on film, basically). I somehow doubt they addressed her like that as children but that's the extent of my knowledge.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The royal social media accounts indeed did not acknowledge the Duke of York's 62nd birthday.

Ed Southgate of The Sun wrote:

Buckingham Palace confirmed there has been no public message as the Duke marks his birthday today.

It is understood public birthday wishes are not made for non-working members of the Royal Family.​

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17704123/queen-prince-andrew-birthday-snub/

It certainly was not the case until now that "public birthday wishes are not made for non-working members of the Royal Family". Even Archie Mountbatten-Windsor's birthdays were marked by the royal family's social media accounts each year.

When is the next birthday of a non-working member of the Royal Family which was marked with a public message in past years? Was a public message posted on the Duchess of Kent's birthday (February 22) in 2021?

Excluding Mrs. Kent (how she introduced herself to her music students) the next birthday of a non-working member is Princess Eugenie on March 23.

Thank you. A birthday message was indeed posted to mark Princess Eugenie's birthday in 2021, but no message was posted on her birthday this year on March 23, 2022. However, a public message was posted to mark Archie Mountbatten-Windsor's third birthday on May 6, 2022, seemingly in contradiction of the new rule. (Readers of the thread should please be mindful of the forum rule against Sussex discussion outside of the Sussex forum. My intention is to note the apparent termination or inconsistent application of the new general protocol which was announced in February.)

Perhaps readers who follow the British royal social media accounts can report on how other non-working royal birthdays have been handled before and after the February 2022 announcement.

 

[MonacoRoyalFan]

Only non-working royals who get
Birthday shoutouts are Princess Beatrice, Princess Eugenie, Duke and Duchess of Sussex, Archie, Lili and the Cambridge children.

Beatrice and Eugenie, they do so sporadically and not at all a regular thing. But as they are two of the few princesses of the blood and have titles, this makes some sense. But it is not a regular thing.

With the Cambridge children, it makes sense as they are very much future of the monarchy and children of a future king.

With the Sussexes and Archie and Lili, it’s very clearly a PR thing. If they didn’t wish them public happy birthdays, it would go noticed and cause ugly headlines.