The Future of the British Monarchy 1: 2018 - 2022


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It seems the point is that the Palace has decided that the queen will no longer carry out those official duties but -if she is up for it- will prioritize the 'Head of Nation' activities over 'Head of State' activities. In that case, wouldn't it be much more sensible to have a Head of State that is able to perform the duties of a Head of State?! Instead of keeping a monarch who because of age and declining health is no longer to perform them but doesn't want to abdicate or request a regency either.

In my opinion it would never come down to the choice between Elizabeth II and an able-bodied republican president, because should it ever become apparent that the continuation of the monarchy was at risk unless Queen Elizabeth II abdicated in favor of a more physically capable monarch, I believe she would abdicate.


The queen continuously stating that she will serve her whole life (in various forms) seems a clear indication that for her it is indeed a taboo. The fact that a regency isn't called in when in similar (and less serious) situations in other countries this has been done, suggests that while it might have been regulated, there is a taboo to actually use it. Instead they've decided that all the activities that were previously deemed necessary to be performed by the Sovereign do no longer require her present but can easily be delegated on a case by case basis to her more able-bodied family members.

For me, a choice to remain on the throne and adapt the distribution of her duties among her family members without a formal regency is not in and of itself an indication that she perceives regency/abdication as a cultural taboo. There are many other potential reasons why a monarch might prefer to take this course.


If anyone can do her job, she is not indispensable and can be replaced.

Of course she can be replaced. Surely that portends positively for the future transition of power, compared to countries with a supposedly irreplaceable head of state. But as a republican president would also be dispensable and replaceable, I am not sure how that is material to the monarchy-republic debate.


There is clearly a cultural taboo on abdication when the mainstream opinion refuses to accept it as a possibility for a 96-year-old person who is clearly above the reasonable retirement age.

I see no indications in the polling or elsewhere that the mainstream opinion refuses to accept abdication as a possibility. In fact, in the event that she desired to abdicate, I expect the mainstream opinion would be fully accepting, just as it was with the Duke of Edinburgh's retirement.
 
In my opinion it would never come down to the choice between Elizabeth II and an able-bodied republican president, because should it ever become apparent that the continuation of the monarchy was at risk unless Queen Elizabeth II abdicated in favor of a more physically capable monarch, I believe she would abdicate.
I don't think anyone is saying that it will come down to that choice. What people are saying is that if apparently you can have a monarch that is not capable of performing the 'head of state duties' of a monarch, which currently is the case as the court it self is judging several activities that were considered indispensable suddenly as fully replaceable, the question becomes why you would want to continue with a monarchy at all.

While there is no DIRECT risk, this episode in which the role of the Sovereign is reduced and reduced and reduced until there is hardly anything left, might in the long run show people that there is no point in keeping a monarch if the role is so minimal it can also be performed by someone who is incapable of performing the expected tasks.

As Mbruno suggests, it might in that case be much more advantageous to have an able-bodied president who for example can undertake state visits abroad while at the same time keeping a figurehead for the 'head of nation role'.

Note: I am not necessarily advocating this model - but I do see the risk of this reduction of the role of the Sovereign. A risk that would not be present if instead of reducing the role, they would find a way to let the heir take over and fulfill all the normally expected duties - either by becoming the new Sovereign or by taking on a formal Regency.

For me, a choice to remain on the throne and adapt the distribution of her duties among her family members without a formal regency is not in and of itself an indication that she perceives regency/abdication as a cultural taboo. There are many other potential reasons why a monarch might prefer to take this course.

I see no indications in the polling or elsewhere that the mainstream opinion refuses to accept abdication as a possibility. In fact, in the event that she desired to abdicate, I expect the mainstream opinion would be fully accepting, just as it was with the Duke of Edinburgh's retirement.
Maybe the issue is with the concept of a 'cultural and religious taboo'. Imho it is a taboo to the queen herself - not necessarily to the general culture. I agree that the public will follow suit if she would request it. But it is quite clear that the queen has no intention to do so and all indications point to her seeing her role as a God-given one for life that she cannot 'abandon' - and that is a greater taboo than anything a 'mortal man' can come up with.
 
I don't think anyone is saying that it will come down to that choice. What people are saying is that if apparently you can have a monarch that is not capable of performing the 'head of state duties' of a monarch, which currently is the case as the court it self is judging several activities that were considered indispensable suddenly as fully replaceable, the question becomes why you would want to continue with a monarchy at all.

While there is no DIRECT risk, this episode in which the role of the Sovereign is reduced and reduced and reduced until there is hardly anything left, might in the long run show people that there is no point in keeping a monarch if the role is so minimal it can also be performed by someone who is incapable of performing the expected tasks.

But how does that risk differ from a ceremonial president who has developed health problems and consequently "reduced and reduced" their duties? Or are you simply arguing that it would be easier to force an ill ceremonial president to step down or appoint a deputy than to force an ill ceremonial monarch to abdicate or appoint a regent?


Note: I am not necessarily advocating this model - but I do see the risk of this reduction of the role of the Sovereign. A risk that would not be present if instead of reducing the role, they would find a way to let the heir take over and fulfill all the normally expected duties - either by becoming the new Sovereign or by taking on a formal Regency.

Perhaps I haven't been following closely enough, but I was under the impression that the normally expected duties are indeed being fulfilled by the heir and various other members of the royal family.


Maybe the issue is with the concept of a 'cultural and religious taboo'. Imho it is a taboo to the queen herself - not necessarily to the general culture.

I was responding to the assertion that it was a cultural taboo. The Queen's personal views and feelings are another matter.
 
But how does that risk differ from a ceremonial president who has developed health problems and consequently "reduced and reduced" their duties? Or are you simply arguing that it would be easier to force an ill ceremonial president to step down or appoint a deputy than to force an ill ceremonial monarch to abdicate or appoint a regent?
Yes, as soon as said president would no longer be able to perform their duties they would be replaced. And an important difference is that they would not be appointed for life but only for a few years.

Perhaps I haven't been following closely enough, but I was under the impression that the normally expected duties are indeed being fulfilled by the heir and various other members of the royal family.
No, it seems you were not reading my post closely enough. I explained that the risk would not be present if the Sovereign officially handed down their duties by either abdicating or having a regency instated; that is a very different scenario than the one we are seeing now in which there is no new Sovereign nor a Regent but these things are decided on a case-by-case basis and the whole family is involved in replacing the queen at times.

A risk that would not be present if instead of reducing the role, they would find a way to let the heir take over and fulfill all the normally expected duties - either by becoming the new Sovereign or by taking on a formal Regency.

Neither of that has happened to my knowledge. What they are doing now is some kind of 'in-between' thing in which the monarch still holds on to the position but no longer is able to fulfill the expected duties...

I was responding to the assertion that it was a cultural taboo. The Queen's personal views and feelings are another matter.
Mbruno included 'or for some people religious taboo' from the start. For some reason you keep leaving that out. To me that seems the most important for those that truly matter (the queen in particular - but probably a part of the Anglican community as well).

And based on how many people are defending the current situation, there seems to be somewhat of a 'cultural taboo' as well - that will most likely last until the queen herself expresses a different opinion. So, from that perspective, there might actually be a cultural taboo as well - to exclude that as an option because that is not 'our tradition'. Moreover, it has lastly been done as a disgrace, so, culturally, it seems abdicating is a dishonorable thing to do in the UK.
 
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No, it seems you were not reading my post closely enough. I explained that the risk would not be present if the Sovereign officially handed down their duties by either abdicating or having a regency instated; that is a very different scenario than the one we are seeing now in which there is no new Sovereign nor a Regent but these things are decided on a case-by-case basis and the whole family is involved in replacing the queen at times.

A risk that would not be present if instead of reducing the role, they would find a way to let the heir take over and fulfill all the normally expected duties - either by becoming the new Sovereign or by taking on a formal Regency.

I read your original post, but wrongly interpreted "fulfill all the normally expected duties" as the key required step, rather than "remove the duties from other family members and transfer them all to the heir", as I now understand you meant. I apologize for misunderstanding. The latter would not have occurred to me as an important distinction when it comes to risk in the court of public opinion (especially as the current heir is less popular than some of the other family members).


Mbruno included 'or for some people religious taboo' from the start. For some reason you keep leaving that out.

You are right that I did not quote Mbruno's full comment in that post (in fact I did not quote it at all, but merely paraphrased one part of it). It didn't seem necessary to quote, I did not dishonestly depict his comments, and it seems to be acceptable on TRF not to always quote others' comments or not quote them in their entirety (you and others have not always quoted my full posts, either, which is fine with me). I am not clear on what the issue is.

The phrase you single out was not related to the point I was trying to make, namely that we were discussing the views of the culture (general public), not of Elizabeth herself.

The exact words were "a cultural (or, for some people, even religious) taboo" (bolding added).


To me that [religious taboo] seems the most important for those that truly matter (the queen in particular - but probably a part of the Anglican community as well).

Polling demonstrates that devout Anglicans are very much in the minority in Britain today. Even if abdication were a religious taboo to the Church of England (and I have not seen evidence that it is), it would not necessarily become a British cultural taboo as a result.


And based on how many people are defending the current situation, there seems to be somewhat of a 'cultural taboo' as well -

Many people are defending the prospect of abdication; following the same logic there would be somewhat of a cultural taboo on not abdicating; however, that would not really be the definition of "taboo".


Moreover, it has lastly been done as a disgrace, so, culturally, it seems abdicating is a dishonorable thing to do in the UK.

Respecfully, I don't think that conclusion holds. Edward VIII also left the country in disgrace, but that does not mean the public today automatically judges any royal move abroad as dishonorable (see the Duke of Sussex or Princess Eugenie).
 
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To speak about a "taboo": I am really no expert on the Anglican Church. Anyway, I was always under the impression, that Anglicanism is very close to Catholicism, but with a Monarch as Pope.

And there is an Pope emeritus so to say in Pope Benedict...

Personally I see this from a rather practical perspective: Her Majesty is not only a very enduring, but also a very good Monarch! The end of her reign is a 'known unknown' and might lead to difficulties for the Windsors, the whole monarchical institution. So, may it come in a time far away into the future!
 
Wonder what came of it as it is almost 1 1/2 years old (it dates from February 2021).


There is an update today in the Daily Express. Scroll down on the following link:


https://www.express.co.uk/news/roya...nce-william-meghan-markle-prince-harry-update


in 2 hours11:38 Ellie Cook
Petition to curb monarchy's power launched

A petition pushed by the anti-monarchy group Republic, looking to curtail the powers of the monarchy, is gathering pace on a public platform.
The description outlined: "Prince Charles and the Queen have the power to insist new laws are tailored to suit their private needs. This has got to stop."
It adds: "The ‘Queen’s Consent’ has been used for more than 1000 laws that have been passed - and so far, we have only just scratched the surface in understanding how and when the Royal family have been involved in lobbying UK governments to change legislation to benefit their estates and wealth.
 
So this system has existed since the 1700s, but Republic, the left-wing, liberal-elitist Guardian and left-wing MPs have suddenly started worrying about it now? We made it through the French Revolutionary/Napoleonic Wars, two world wars and the Covid pandemic without it causing a problem. We saw the agricultural and industrial revolutions without it being a problem. But it's somehow a problem now?

If it's such a problem, why has it never been raised before? Republic just look for things to make an issue of, and blow them up out of all proportion. Its members seem to have nothing else to do with their time.
 
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So this system has existed since the 1700s, but Republic, the left-wing, liberal-elitist Guardian and left-wing MPs have suddenly started worrying about it now? We made it through the French Revolutionary/Napoleonic Wars, two world wars and the Covid pandemic without it causing a problem. We saw the agricultural and industrial revolutions without it being a problem. But it's somehow a problem now?

If it's such a problem, why has it never been raised before? Republic just look for things to make an issue of, and blow them up out of all proportion. Its members seem to have nothing else to do with their time.

But someone has to start somewhere. Suddenly we see all forms of activism, on women's rights, on Black awareness, on colonialism, etc.

With the same right one can ask why Black Peter is no longer the servant of Saint Nicholas, it has been for so many generations. With the same right we can ask why suddenly it is no longer okay to have an allegoric painting depicting a "Motherland" wisely governing (exploiting?) it's "Colonies" while generations have been perfectly okay with it. With the same right one can ask why Columbus is now a persona non grata while for generations he was hailed as "discoverer of America".

One has to start somewhere. Apparently it is no longer okay that a private, non-elected person, has a theoretical influence in the legislative process of a democracy. It never was a problem. And now it is. Like all the given examples never were a problem. And now these are.
 
The Future of the British Monarchy 1: Ending Sep 2022

It's time to close this thread. You can find the new one here.
 
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