The British Nobility thread 2: Sep 2022 -

[Marengo]

Arms of The United Kingdom​

Welcome to the British Nobility thread, Part 2

Commencing September 1st, 2022 ​

The previous thread can be found here
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[Durham]

There are two of them by two different people, one focuses specifically on Bendor, the other person uses Bendor as an example on how the aristocracy thrives or declined. Please kindly tell me what you think after, I would be very interested in your thoughts.

I was unaware of Westminster's involvement in settlement schemes in southern Africa. That was very interesting.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I was unaware of Westminster's involvement in settlement schemes in southern Africa. That was very interesting.

Yes Bendor was encouraged and built an estate in South Africa called Westminster. Anything else you found interesting?

 

[Durham]

The Fitzwilliams did something similar settling tenants on their Irish estates in the C17th.

There's a lot to read so I'm dipping in & out atm. The management of the London estate in the C20th is also interesting. The Duke of Bedford sold Covent Garden whereas the Grosvenors were loath to sell any of their London estate.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

The Fitzwilliams did something similar settling tenants on their Irish estates in the C17th.

There's a lot to read so I'm dipping in & out atm. The management of the London estate in the C20th is also interesting. The Duke of Bedford sold Covent Garden whereas the Grosvenors were loath to sell any of their London estate.

The Duke of Bedford has some land in London, but of course they sold Covent Garden and I think the issue was mismanagement of Covent Garden among other things. The Grosvenors are the wealthiest aristocratic family in the country for a reason. As well as the fact that the Grosvenor’s management of the estate was probably better than the Duke of Bedford’s.

 

[iceflower]

The Marchioness of Bath attended Edward Enninful's "A Visible Man" book launch at Claridge's Hotel in London yesterday, September 4:


** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 ** Pic 3 **

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Yes she will be styled Lady Olympia Spencer-Churchill. Interesting that she was born on the same day as the daugther of the Duke and Duchess of Huescar but unlike her she will not inherited the Titles of her father and grandfather.

Both of them are distant relatives

Consuelo had a very elegant look to her didn't she?

So fascinating ....I wonder how much adjustment needed to be done when marrying into the nobility even though she was a Vanderbilt..although perhaps not as much as I would think.


LaRae

Money doesn’t make a man or woman. Of course ironically the 9th Duke married her for money, but being a wealthy Vanderbilt didn’t meant she would be prepared for aristocratic life. But she partook in court life, charity work among other things and did well.

What you said was He Inherited IT.

No, they inherited it. Not equal shares, but they all inherited their fathers fortune. You make it sound like he inherited it all and his sisters get an allowance as a consolation prize.

I know I. Your ideal world sons inherit everything. I believe you even suggested Spanish daughters who are heirs should not claim their title or estate as they should bow in recognition their brothers are the rightful lords but fortunately many men like the late Duke think all their kids are entitled to a share. Ancestral homes and money remain with the duke, the rest gets shared with all siblings.

They (collectively) didn’t inherit the real estate holdings. The late Duke’s daughters already received money and trust funds, the elder girls who married before he died were given big dowries and when he died they received other gifts. The real estate company doesn’t belong to one person, the immediate family are beneficiaries and aren’t running the company or on the company board. Their father’s personal estate went to his widow.

 

[Biri]

Again a tragedy in British Nobility!

Alexander Charles Robert Sutherland, styled Lord Strathnaver, son and heir of the 25th Earl of Sutherland, and heir to the Dunrobin Castle estate, the most northerly stately home in Scotland, has died tragically. He was 40.

Lord Strathnaver was found at the bottom of 30ft cliffs at Thurso East, near the ruined 19th century Thurso Castle in Caithness. Thurso Lifeboat was launched at 11.30pm on Saturday 3 September, 2022, after reports of a person on the rocks.

(..) Sources: Peerage News
https://www.angelfire.com/realm/goth...utherland.html

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Alexander Charles Robert Sutherland, styled Lord Strathnaver, son and heir of the 25th Earl of Sutherland, and heir to the Dunrobin Castle estate, the most northerly stately home in Scotland, has died tragically. He was 40.

Lord Strathnaver was found at the bottom of 30ft cliffs at Thurso East, near the ruined 19th century Thurso Castle in Caithness. Thurso Lifeboat was launched at 11.30pm on Saturday 3 September, 2022, after reports of a person on the rocks.

(..) Sources: Peerage News
https://www.angelfire.com/realm/goth...utherland.html

Oh my word! Most unfortunate. May he R.I.P.

 

[iceflower]

The Marchioness of Bath - not wearing that much - attended a dinner for the launch of the new wellness brand Cosmoss By Kate Moss in London this evening, September 6:


** Pic ** gettyimages gallery **

 

[Biri]

Love does not count the years!

The engagement was announced 15 September, 2022, between Andrew Charles Quicke [born 1936], scion of that landed gentry family, elder son of Commander John Quicke, RN [1902-79], of Ashbrittle, Somerset, and his wife the former Diana Elena Harris, a descendant of the Viscounts Sidmouth, and Miss Priscilla Wilmot Wrightson [born 1942], daughter of Anthony Gilchrist Wrightson [1907-74], of London, and his wife the former Elizabeth Wilmot Bernays [1908-82].

4th Viscount Sidmouth > Hon Marjorie Ruth Addington > Diana Elena Harris > Andrew Quicke

Source: Peerage News

 

[Biri]

The Marchioness of Bath - not wearing that much - attended a dinner for the launch of the new wellness brand Cosmoss By Kate Moss in London this evening, September 6:


** Pic ** gettyimages gallery **

And her mother-in-law has died:

The Dowager Marchioness of Bath, who died 17 September, 2022, in Paris, aged 78, was the widow of the eccentric aristocrat the 7th Marquess of Bath [1932-2020], and was the former chateleaine of Longleat, one of the great houses of Britain. Her husband was a tabloid favourite, not only for his picturesque appearance and peculiar artistic tastes but for his string of mistresses, whom he referred to as his wifelets (he reckoned there to have been around 74 of them).

The Marchioness was the former Anna Gaël Gyarmathy [the actress Anna Gaël], and was born in Budapest, 27 September, 1943, daughter of Laszlo Izsak Gyarmathy, of Los Angeles, California.

Her films and tv credits include Mademoiselle de la Ferté (1965), The Love Factor [1969], and Nana [1970], Red Haired Revolver [1973], Karetekas and Co [TV mini series 1973], Bedmania [1974], Blue Blood [1974], Dracula and Son [1976], Maxim's Porter [1976], Holiday Hotel [1978], Sweeney 2 [1978], and We're Not Angels ... Neither Are They [1981].

She married 9 May, 1969, then then Alexander George Thynne [later Thynn], styled Viscount Weymouth, son and heir of the 6th Marquess of Bath [1905-92], and his first wife the former Hon Daphne Winifred Louise Vivian [1904-97], daughter of the 4th Baron Vivian [1878-1940].

The Marquess of Bath admitted that he married partly in order to father a legitimate heir for the family estate, and after fulfilling this duty the Marchioness led a separate life with her own lover in Paris, returning to Longleat for occasional weekends.

Her husband, beloved by the tabloid press as 'the Loins of Longleat' succeeded his father as 7th Marquess of Bath, 30 June, 1992. The family seat at Longleat is one of the best examples of Elizabethan architecture in Britain set in 9,000 Wiltshire acres. Lord Bath died from Covid-19, 4 April, 2020.

The Dowager Marchioness of Bath is survived by a daughter, Lady Lenka Abigail Thynn [born 20 Oct, 1969], and by a son, Ceawlin Henry Laszlo Thynn, the 8th Marquess of Bath [born 6 June, 1974].

Source: Peerage News

 

[Pairs of the Realm]

Sad news that Lady Frances and Rodolphe von Hofmannsthal have announced their separation after almost 16 years of marriage. They have three children (a son and two daughters. The Daily Mail report made an error).

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowb...owdons-daughter-art-dealer-husband-split.html

Lady Frances is obviously the (half-)sister of the King’s first cousins, The Earl of Snowdon and Lady Sarah Chatto, while Rodolphe is descended from both British and Austrian nobility. That makes Frances and Rodolphe’s children descended from the great peers of the realm.

Rodolphe’s nobility line:

Charles Paget, 6th Marquess of Anglesey -> Lady Elizabeth von Hofmannsthal (née Paget) -> Octavian von Hofmannsthal -> Rodolphe von Hofmannsthal

Henry Manners, 8th Duke of Rutland -> Lady Marjorie Paget, Marchioness of Anglesey (née Manners) -> Lady Elizabeth von Hofmannsthal (née Paget) -> Octavian von Hofmannsthal -> Rodolphe von Hofmannsthal

Hugo von Hofmannsthal (Edler von Hofmannsthal) -> Raimund von Hofmannsthal -> Octavian von Hofmannsthal -> Rodolphe von Hofmannsthal

 

[eya]

Marchioness of Bath, attends the Burberry Spring/Summer 2023 runway show in Bermondsey on 26 September in London


https://media.gettyimages.com/id/12...=0TcziSBzdJRkZpcrGiQOlxwUOYpLvd0bhx4e5eeEwIU=
https://media.gettyimages.com/id/12...=VkA4SAklUfEhRwW71Mfe6MskcluYv-HHEO7cC_BPIr8=

 

[SirGyamfi1]

And her mother-in-law has died:

The Dowager Marchioness of Bath, who died 17 September, 2022, in Paris, aged 78, was the widow of the eccentric aristocrat the 7th Marquess of Bath [1932-2020], and was the former chateleaine of Longleat, one of the great houses of Britain. Her husband was a tabloid favourite, not only for his picturesque appearance and peculiar artistic tastes but for his string of mistresses, whom he referred to as his wifelets (he reckoned there to have been around 74 of them).

The Marchioness was the former Anna Gaël Gyarmathy [the actress Anna Gaël], and was born in Budapest, 27 September, 1943, daughter of Laszlo Izsak Gyarmathy, of Los Angeles, California.

Her films and tv credits include Mademoiselle de la Ferté (1965), The Love Factor [1969], and Nana [1970], Red Haired Revolver [1973], Karetekas and Co [TV mini series 1973], Bedmania [1974], Blue Blood [1974], Dracula and Son [1976], Maxim's Porter [1976], Holiday Hotel [1978], Sweeney 2 [1978], and We're Not Angels ... Neither Are They [1981].

She married 9 May, 1969, then then Alexander George Thynne [later Thynn], styled Viscount Weymouth, son and heir of the 6th Marquess of Bath [1905-92], and his first wife the former Hon Daphne Winifred Louise Vivian [1904-97], daughter of the 4th Baron Vivian [1878-1940].

The Marquess of Bath admitted that he married partly in order to father a legitimate heir for the family estate, and after fulfilling this duty the Marchioness led a separate life with her own lover in Paris, returning to Longleat for occasional weekends.

Her husband, beloved by the tabloid press as 'the Loins of Longleat' succeeded his father as 7th Marquess of Bath, 30 June, 1992. The family seat at Longleat is one of the best examples of Elizabethan architecture in Britain set in 9,000 Wiltshire acres. Lord Bath died from Covid-19, 4 April, 2020.

The Dowager Marchioness of Bath is survived by a daughter, Lady Lenka Abigail Thynn [born 20 Oct, 1969], and by a son, Ceawlin Henry Laszlo Thynn, the 8th Marquess of Bath [born 6 June, 1974].

Source: Peerage News

I wonder what her son thinks because they weren’t on good terms because she wasn’t nice to her son’s wife. Also she disapproved of Emma, the current Marchioness.

 

[Denville]

seems odd that Lady Bath was so hostile to her sons wife because of her race when she did not seem to disapprove of her own husband's fondness for wifelets.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

seems odd that Lady Bath was so hostile to her sons wife because of her race when she did not seem to disapprove of her own husband's fondness for wifelets.

I don’t think we can necessarily compare her racist thinking to her tolerating her husbands wifelets. I think she and her husband had a mutual understanding on the wifelet situation and she tolerated it. But she did not like Emma for her race. No one in the family had an issue with Emma, except for Ceawlin’s mother.

 

[Toledo]

Debrett's Guide to the British Nobility - be prepared, it's links within links of interesting details. Unfortunately, the setting to copy sections of any text is blocked out.

https://debretts.com/peerage-and-baronetage/

 

[eya]

Marchioness of Bath attends the "Carita - Maison De Beaute" Celebration as part of Paris Fashion Week on 30 September

https://media.gettyimages.com/photo...aute-celebration-as-part-picture-id1429170447

https://www.rexfeatures.com/livefee...celeb=Emma Weymouth&folder=Paris Fashion Week

https://www.gettyimages.com/search/2/image?events=775880472

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I want to ask someone who understands this. How is if that the Dukedom of Somerset passed to another branch while the Dukedom of Northumberland was recreated for a female heiress of the Seymour family.

 

[Gawin]

I want to ask someone who understands this. How is if that the Dukedom of Somerset passed to another branch while the Dukedom of Northumberland was recreated for a female heiress of the Seymour family.

Both the dukedom of Somerset and earldom of Northumberland were limited to heirs male. When Josceline Percy 11th Earl of Northumberland died in 1670 he left only a daughter and had no heir male whatsoever so the earldom became extinct.

His daughter Elizabeth married Charles Seymour 6th Duke of Somerset and their son Algernon 7th Duke of Somerset was created Earl of Northumberland in 1749. Because his only son had died, the earldom was created with a special remainder allowing his daughter's (another Elizabeth) husband Sir Hugh Smithson to inherit it.

When Algernon died in 1750 the dukedom of Somerset passed to his heir male (a distant cousin) but the earldom of Northumberland went to Hugh Smithson, who by that time had changed his surname to Percy. In 1766 the earldom was raised to a dukedom when Hugh Percy (formerly Smithson) became 1st Duke of Northumberland.

 

[iceflower]

Lady Frances von Hofmannsthal attended the Roksanda x Noble Panacea dinner at The Connaught Hotel in London this evening, October 12:


** Pic **

 

[duchessrachel]

Has anyone hear read Black Diamonds?


The family actually paid the tax, Pimlico was partly sold to pay for it.


The 1st Duke was a major philanthropist and patron of a number building’s in Chester and to some charities and hospitals, the 2nd Duke although more well-known for being a playboy and for his marriages was also involved in some philanthropy: he donated land around Milbank for housing working class people, his staff were well-paid and he advocated and built flats for working class people. Bendor also received a DSO for a military campaign in Egypt and saved some British officers. The current Duke’s late father was involved in the military and advocated for veterans. Yes granting of the Dukedom wasn’t because of political reasons or for the family’s lack of political finesse like the Cecil family or Cavendish family, but some of the title holders had their own achievements.

I have read it but it has been awhile. I thought it was a very good book.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I have read it but it has been awhile. I thought it was a very good book.

Yes, it’s a nice book I read this year. I wish or hope it could be made into a film because I think it could be a great highlight to Wentworth Woodhouse.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Consuelo had a very elegant look to her didn't she?

So fascinating ....I wonder how much adjustment needed to be done when marrying into the nobility even though she was a Vanderbilt..although perhaps not as much as I would think.


LaRae

Her being a Vanderbilt wouldn’t help her navigate through the British aristocracy, but as she was married to a Duke from a prominent family so she experienced high profile events and Consuelo was educated and cultured. She partook in charitable endeavors with other female aristocratic peers.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I have always been fascinated with how the aristocracy live their lives such as their social circles, weekend parties, who they were allowed to date, etc. From reading through this thread it looks like many of them today participate in celebrity style events. I am more interested in the bygone era. I found this book on amazon, and it seems sort of what I am looking for. Also this book seems interesting, but some of the reviews say it does not quite live up to its title. Can anyone recommend any books? Thanks.

Another book is Noble Ambitions

It's not like the British aristocracy have ever had a reputation for long, happy, faithful marriages to each other. It's just easier to get a divorce these days.

More than one commentator has snarked that if they didn't have money and titles then they'd all be on the Jerry Springer Show.

Oh well, good luck to them both. He does seem to be keen on sustainable tourism in Scotland and it's a good idea to start a company to retrain injured soldiers. I can't find anything on his bride-to-be.

His wife is the half-sister of Charles Green, husband of Margherita von Arco-Zinnberg. I think she was born in South Africa.

 

[Heavs]

His wife is the half-sister of Charles Green, husband of Margherita von Arco-Zinnberg. I think she was born in South Africa.

Blast from the posting past, thank you for the info. I remember mention of their wedding a year ago but didn't follow it.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Blast from the posting past, thank you for the info. I remember mention of their wedding a year ago but didn't follow it.

I remember reading on Marlene’s blog and it just occurred to me that the Duke of Roxburghe’s wife was related to Countess Margherita of Arco-Zinnberg

 

[iceflower]

The Marchioness of Bath and Wes Gordon hosted a dinner to celebrate Carolina Herrera New York at Sir John Soane's Museum in London yesterday, October 25:


** gettyimages gallery ** dailymail article **

 

[eya]

Marchioness of Bath, attends the Longchamp New Bond Street Reopening Party on 26 October in London

https://media.gettyimages.com/id/14...=h8WyXtt4Z_XYUPz1KTPCbXb1Z_sS1OBSOBUGQdHUhSM=

https://www.gettyimages.com/search/2/image?events=775892171