Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Nice Nofret]

...when William became King, would have been Queen Mother.

I'm sorry to contradict you:
There is no official title 'The Queen Mother':

Queen Elisabeth was to be named 'The Queen Mother' because she has the same name as her Daughter Queen Elisabeth II - it would have been confusing to have two 'Queen Elisabeth' at the same time.

See Queen Mary - she was known as Queen Mary also after the death of her husband King George .. as there was no way of confusing her with the wife of her son - with Queen Elisabeth.

Diana would have been known as Queen Diana (as Widow of a King Charles), if William had come to the throne after his father. In the event of Charles death before the death of his mother, as the Widow of the Prince of Wales, she would be known as the Dowager Princess of Wales.

A divorced Diana had no right to any other title than that she had after the divorce; no change there.

 

[Artemisia]

I'm sorry to contradict you:
There is no official title 'The Queen Mother'.

I'm afraid that is incorrect. There is a title and position of a Queen Mother in most European Monarchies, including the United Kingdom.
I suggest you read this Wikipedia entry for more details.

In Britain, there can be four types of Queens:
- Queen Regnant (the Monarch)
- Queen Consort (wife of the reigning Monarch)
- Queen Dowager (a widowed Queen Consort)
- Queen Mother (a widowed Queen Consort whose child is the reigning Monarch)

Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was Queen Consort for the duration of George VI's reign, and a Queen Dowager and Queen Mother immediately upon his death and their daughter's accession to the Throne.

Queen Elisabeth was to be named 'The Queen Mother' because she has the same name as her Daughter Queen Elisabeth II - it would have been confusing to have two 'Queen Elisabeth' at the same time.

That is exactly what I said in my post.
Traditionally, different types of Queens in Britain are known as simply "Queen Name" (without the addition of Mother, Dowager, Consort, or Regnant). However, Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was indeed specifically known as "The Queen Mother" since she and her daughter shared the same first name; it would have otherwise been confusing to have two Queens Elizabeth.

See Queen Mary - she was known as Queen Mary also after the death of her husband King George .. as there was no way of confusing her with the wife of her son - with Queen Elisabeth.

Queen Mary continued to be known simply as Queen Mary because, as already mentioned, "Mother" is not commonly used. However, legally she was Queen Mother during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI, and Queen Dowager during the reign of Queen Elizabeth II. Similarly, Queen Alexandra was Queen Mother during the reign of George V.

Diana would have been known as Queen Diana (as Widow of a King Charles), if William had come to the throne after his father. In the event of Charles death before the death of his mother, as the Widow of the Prince of Wales, she would be known as the Dowager Princess of Wales.

I do not contest that; in fact, I said just that in my post as well.
If Charles and Diana hadn't divorced, she would have been Charles' Queen Consort (known simply as Queen Diana) upon his accession to the Throne. When William succeeded his father, she would have become The Queen Mother (although again, she would simply be known as Queen Diana).

A divorced Diana had no right to any other title than that she had after the divorce; no change there.

Again, my post did not contradict that statement in any shape or form.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

I dislike nagging, but posters really should read 5 or 6 posts before they post to see if they are replicating previous posts.

I don't think the Windsor dukedom will ever be used again. I hope it is never used again. The abdication was horrible for the RF and for the government. He let down his people. Yes, he is being slowly and surely covered by the mists of time, but I don't think the dukedom will ever be used again, as it is at the Monarch's will and it will be a very long time before the House changes from Windsor to something else.

I thought the Queen Mum was called that because she didn't want to be the "Dowager" anything. Is this a casual title or "in stone" title?

 

[Artemisia]

I thought the Queen Mum was called that because she didn't want to be the "Dowager" anything. Is this a casual title or "in stone" title?

Queen Mother is an official title and the mother of the current Queen automatically became one upon the death of her husband and her daughter's accession to the Throne. If Queen Elizabeth II predeceased her mother, then Queen Elizabeth (the Queen Mother) would have become Queen Dowager since she would then only be grandmother - and not mother - of the Monarch. Similarly, Queen Mary was a Queen Mother for the duration of Edward VIII and George VI's reigns, but became Queen Dowager when her granddaughter became Queen.

If the two Queens didn't share the same name, it is highly unlikely Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother would ever be known as "Queen Mother" - just Queen Elizabeth, as is the custom. I suppose Queen Elizabeth could have been known as Queen Dowager too, but given the choice of "Queen Dowager" and "Queen Mother", I would have chosen the latter as well.

 

[Kataryn]

If the two Queens didn't share the same name, it is highly unlikely Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother would ever be known as "Queen Mother" - just Queen Elizabeth, as is the custom. I suppose Queen Elizabeth could have been known as Queen Dowager too, but given the choice of "Queen Dowager" and "Queen Mother", I would have chosen the latter as well.

I know from the example of the Habsburg dynasty, that they used in one case the styles of "Empress", "Empress Dowager" and "Empress Mother" on order of the emperor to be able to differenciate between all those "empresses". In 1853 Emperor Franz Joseph I. married Elisabeth Duchess in Bavaria. She became his "Empress" as "The Empress of Austria". His own mother was inofficially called the "Empress Mother" but as she never was an empress herself, this name was not used on documents. Instead "HM, The Empress Mother of Austria" was in fact Karoline Auguste (born a princess of Bavaria and half-sister to Franz Joseph's mother, The Archduchess Sophie) who herself never was the mother of an emperor but just the step-mother of emperor Ferdinand I and surviving fourth wife of emperor Franz II. She was granted the title courtesy of her step-son when he became emperor to show her his respect and love. She lived till 1873. Little did emperor Ferdinand I. know that he would abdicate in 1948 in favour of his nephew. And that he would keep his title of emperor till his death in 1875, thus letting his wife Maria-Anna be his empress. So at 1870 time Austria had:
- HM The Empress Mother (step-grandmother of The Emperor)
- HM The Empress Maria-Anna (aunt of The Emperor)
- HM The Empress (Elisabeth) (wife of THe Emperor)
- HIRH The Archduchess Sophie (mothe rof the Emperor, called internally the Imperial Mother).

On his uncle Ferdinand's death Franz Joseph granted the title of HM THe Empress Dowager to Ferdinand's widow Maria-Anna. The title of The Empress Mother had fallen in abeyance due to Empress Karoline Augustes' death. Still he could not grand that title to his own mother because she had died before her stepsister in 1872...

Complicated, isn't it?

 

[Artemisia]

Complicated, but very interesting. I'm not very familiar with Austrian titles and styles system, so thanks for this!

In 1952, Britian had a situation similar to Austria in 1870: from the moment of Queen Elizabeth's accession to the Throne in 1952 and until Queen Mary's death in 1953, Britain had three Queens:
- Queen Elizabeth II (the Queen Regnant)
- Queen Elizabeth (the Queen Mother)
- Queen Mary (the Queen Dowager)

And another similar case in 1490's. After Henry Tudor ascended to the Throne, there were two Queens and a king's mother.
- Queen Elizabeth of York (Henry VII's wife)
- Queen Elizabeth Woodville (Elizabeth of York's mother and the Queen Dowager as widow of Edward IV)
- Lady Margaret Beaufort (Henry VII's mother, informally known as My Lady The King's Mother)

 

[An Ard Ri]

The mothers of all the current set of European Monarchs are now deceased,Belgium is the only present Monarchy in Europe with 2 Queens .

Queen Paola,Queen Consort to Albert II
Queen Fabiola,Queen Dowager.

 

[scooter]

I don't see anybody being the Duke and Duchess of Windsor ever again. That title was created for Edward VIII when he abdicated the throne and is still a rather sore spot still in British history.

The only instance I would have predicted Duke and Duchess of Windsor title to be used would have been if Charles had not been allowed to retain his place in the order when he wanted to marry Camilla. Had he been required to relinquish his spot to marry her and gone off with her to paint watercolors in Tuscany or whatever, I could have seen them being the 2nd Duke and Duchess of Windsor, which would have been historically appropriate. Also would have caused less constitutional headaches, IMHO.

 

[Madame Royale]

Had he been required to relinquish his spot to marry her and gone off with her to paint watercolors in Tuscany

.lol..Oh scooter! Your dry, wry sense of humour gives me quite the chuckle.

 

[purple_Lulu]

I have a book published during George VI's reign titled "The Queen Mother", it's about Queen Mary. So the title was indeed out there!

It was bought by a friend who's a QEQM fan, got it home and opened it up and disappointedly decided it would do for Lulu!

And QEQM's biography quoted her as describing the title as "ghastly" or some-such, so it doesn't sound like it was necessarily her choice!

 

[purple_Lulu]

The only instance I would have predicted Duke and Duchess of Windsor title to be used would have been if Charles had not been allowed to retain his place in the order when he wanted to marry Camilla. .

I suspect not even Camilla could have induced Charles to forfeit the throne, but as far as any future use of the Windsor title is concerned I'd say you're bang on!

The title was a brand spanking new invention to solve the dilemma of what the hell do we do with an ex-king. Not in the same league to be returned to the pool of potential royal dukedoms.

 

[Osipi]

Anyone that would suggest Charles going off into the sunset and painting in Tuscany is a person that knows Charles pretty well. I've read in several places that he fell in love with Italy and would love to happily sit and paint there and farm.

I agree though that hell would have to freeze over first (and I don't mean Hell, Michigan which does freeze over) before Charles would even think of relinquishing the duty he has prepared for all of his life. He's been perhaps the hardest working Prince of Wales ever and I do expect him to exert the same passion being King.

 

[Madame Royale]

And QEQM's biography quoted her as describing the title as "ghastly" or some-such, so it doesn't sound like it was necessarily her choice!

I've never found the late Queen Mothers' thoughts on matters related to the Duke and Duchess to be of any real interest (personally) as all her opinions were emotive by nature so anything she had to say would have hardly come as a surprise. There was no subjective thought lended to 'the' Windsor's and I of course can empathise as to why that was, but it hardly makes for an accurate portrayal of events. Just a woman's biased dislike that grew and flourished in all aspects of opinion for the majority of her life.

The same can be said of the late Duchess, who's mutual disliking of the Queen Mother was well rumoured and in her own way, confirmed.

Both women were stubborn and proud. In a sense, quite smiliar in various ways.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Anyone that would suggest Charles going off into the sunset and painting in Tuscany is a person that knows Charles pretty well. I've read in several places that he fell in love with Italy and would love to happily sit and paint there and farm.

I agree though that hell would have to freeze over first (and I don't mean Hell, Michigan which does freeze over) before Charles would even think of relinquishing the duty he has prepared for all of his life. He's been perhaps the hardest working Prince of Wales ever and I do expect him to exert the same passion being King.

Couldn't agree more - Charles has worked consistently at being the best prepared heir to the throne in history and will continue with that work ethic once he is king, of that I have no doubt.

 

[principessa]

Sorry for my next two stupid questions:

1. The further children of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will be styled as HRH Prince/ss of Cambridge?

2. Does in the United Kingdom a male pendant to Queen Mother exist? If HM Queen Elizabeth dies and is survived by her husband, will The Duke of Edinburgh be "King Father"?

Thank you!

 

[Artemisia]

Sorry for my next two stupid questions:

1. The further children of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will be styled as HRH Prince/ss of Cambridge?

2. Does in the United Kingdom a male pendant to Queen Mother exist? If HM Queen Elizabeth dies and is survived by her husband, will The Duke of Edinburgh be "King Father"?

Thank you!

Your questions are in no way stupid; this forum is to share opinions and knowledge.

1. If Prince William's children are born during the lifetime of Queen Elizabeth, then only the eldest son will automatically be a Royal Highness and a Prince.
According to Letters Patent 1917, the title of a Prince/Princess and the style of Royal Highness is limited to male-line grandchildren of the Monarch, and the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales. Thus, Prince William's eldest son will be automatically be a Prince and a Royal Highness, whereas the younger children will be styled as younger children of a Duke - Lords and Ladies.
However, it is extremely likely that as soon as the Duchess of Cambridge's first pregnancy is announced, the Queen will issue Letters Patent granting all future children of the couple the style of Royal Highness and title of Princes and Princesses. It was done before; when Prince Charles and Princess Anne were born, they were not entitled to the style of Royal Highness, or title of a Prince and Princess (since they were only female-line grandchildren of the Monarch); to avoid any unnecessary complication, George VI issued Letters Patent granting any children of Princess Elizabeth and the Duke of Edinburgh those styles and titles.

If William's children are born during the reign of King Charles, they will be Princes and Princesses of the United Kingdom with the style of Royal Highnesses as male-line grandchildren of the Monarch. The same goes for Prince Harry's children.


2. The title "King Father" doesn't exist in the United Kingdom, or any of the European Monarchies.
If the Duke outlives the Queen, his styles and titles will remain exactly the same as they are now - His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. His styles and titles are are independent of his wives and not connected to her life or reign. During the reign of King Charles, he will be the king's father, but not the King Father since the title never existed. Whereas different types of Queens exist (Queen Regnant, Queen Consort, Queen Mother, Queen Dowager), in the United Kingdom, the title "King" can only belong to the Monarch - and no one else. Prince Philip isn't the Monarch - just the Monarch's consort; as such he cannot bear the title in any shape or form.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Sorry for my next two stupid questions:

1. The further children of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will be styled as HRH Prince/ss of Cambridge?

Their first son with be an HRH, any children after that born when HM is still Queen will only be Lord and Lady. The other children will be elevated to HRH when Charles becomes King.

2. Does in the United Kingdom a male pendant to Queen Mother exist? If HM Queen Elizabeth dies and is survived by her husband, will The Duke of Edinburgh be "King Father"?

Thank you!

No King Father title.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

Despite the fact that there is no precedent for it is there any chance that Phillip would be called Prince Father? This title has been used in some countries although I realize it hasn't been used in England.

 

[Artemisia]

Despite the fact that there is no precedent for it is there any chance that Phillip would be called Prince Father? This title has been used in some countries although I realize it hasn't been used in England.

In theory, such a possibility does exist, although in reality, it is highly unlikely to happen.
Prince Charles would have to issue Letters Patent granting his father the official title of The Prince Father.

There is a precedence; in 1857, Queen Victoria granted her husband the official title of The Prince Consort - one that had never existed in Britain before that.
Incidentally, Prince Albert remains the only British Consort in history to have officially held the title).

 

[An Ard Ri]

Despite the fact that there is no precedent for it is there any chance that Phillip would be called Prince Father? This title has been used in some countries although I realize it hasn't been used in England.

I think Prince Philip would balk at the very idea of that title

 

[Thena]

The only reason that the Queen Mother title was ever used by the mother of the current queen is because they both had the same name. It would have been too confusing to distinguish between the dowager Queen Elizabeth and Queen Elizabeth II.

If you look back, Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary did not use the title of "queen mother" when their sons were king. Neither did Queen Victoria's mother, who continued to be known as the Duchess of Kent.

 

[Tsar bobo Iv]

why isn't queen Elizabeth named Mountbatten instead of windsor

 

[Artemisia]

The only reason that the Queen Mother title was ever used by the mother of the current queen is because they both had the same name. It would have been too confusing to distinguish between the dowager Queen Elizabeth and Queen Elizabeth II.

If you look back, Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary did not use the title of "queen mother" when their sons were king. Neither did Queen Victoria's mother, who continued to be known as the Duchess of Kent.

Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary did not use the title The Queen Mother, but they both had it - Queen Alexandra from 1910 to 1925 (from George V's accession to the Throne to her death), Queen Mary from 1936 to 1952 (from Edward VIII and then George VI's accession to the Throne, and until Queen Elizabeth II became Queen).
Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld (Queen Victoria's mother) may have been the Queen's mother, but she never held the title of The Queen Mother for a simple reason; in order to be a Queen Mother, you have to be a Queen Consort first - and she was never that.

You are right, Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother used her title because she shared the same name with her daughter; otherwise, confusions were bound to arise what with there being two Queens Elizabeth. However, Queen Elizabeth The Queen mother had the title from the moment her daughter became Queen, same as Queen Mary and Queen Alexandra during the reigns of their children. Like the titles Queen Dowager, Queen Consort, and Queen Regnant, a Queen Mother doesn't usually use it, but it's still hers if she is a Queen Dowager whose child is the current Monarch.

Theoretically, if Queen Mary had been named Elizabeth as well, then from 1952 to 1953 there would have been three Queens Elizabeth in the country - Queen Elizabeth II (the Queen Regnant), Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother, and Queen Elizabeth The Queen Dowager.

 

[An Ard Ri]

why isn't queen Elizabeth named Mountbatten instead of windsor

The official name of the British Royal Family or Royal House is Windsor .Prince Philip of Greece adopted the surname Mountbatten (which was his mothers maiden name) in 1947.Prior to that his surname was the Danish-German House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg .


from wiki
On 9 April 1952, Queen Elizabeth II officially declared her "Will and Pleasure that I and My children shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that my descendants who marry and their descendants, shall bear the name of Windsor." On 8 February 1960, the Queen confirmed that she and her children would continue to be known as the House and Family of Windsor, as would any agnatic descendants who enjoy the style of Royal Highness, and the title of Prince or Princess.Still, Elizabeth also decreed that her agnatic descendants who do not have that style and title would bear the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.

 

[Artemisia]

why isn't queen Elizabeth named Mountbatten instead of windsor

The simple (and short) answer to your question is: because she chose not to.

A bit more elaborate answer is also a lot longer. When Princess Elizabeth married Prince Philip, the standard practice would have been to adopt his surname or the name of the House he belonged to. Thus, the last name of their children should have indeed been Mountbatten (the surname Prince Philip chose), and not Windsor. For instance, when Queen Victoria married Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, the Reigning House she belonged to remained unchanged (Hanover), but her son and heir, Edward VII, belonged to the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (his father's Royal House). That would, in effect mean that once Prince Charles ascended to the Throne, the name of the Royal House should have changed from Windsor to Mountbatten.

However, just a month after her accession to the Throne, Queen Elizabeth issued Royal Proclamation of 1952, where she announced her decision that all she and "her children shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor". A further proclamation was issued in 1960, whereby the Queen confirmed Windsor as the name of the Royal House and the family name of those of her and Prince Philip's descendants who enjoy the style of Royal Highness and the title of a British Prince/Princess. However, she also mentioned that those of their descendants who do not have such styles and titles will go by the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.

It has to be noted that Prince Charles, Princess Anne, Prince Andrew and Prince Edward have all used Mountbatten-Windsor as their surname in their private lives. However, officially they all continue to belong to the House and Family of Windsor.

 

[branchg]

The official name of the British Royal Family or Royal House is Windsor .Prince Philip of Greece adopted the surname Mountbatten (which was his mothers maiden name) in 1947.Prior to that his surname was the Danish-German House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg.

Princess Alice was never a Mountbatten. This surname was adopted by her father, Prince Louis of Battenberg, when George V ordered his German relatives who were British subjects to stop using their German styles and titles in 1917. Prince Louis dropped his princely style of Battenberg and assumed the style of Lord Louis Mountbatten until The King created him Marquess of Milford Haven in the Peerage.

Alice was born "HSH Princess Alice of Battenberg" and was known as such until she married HRH Prince Andrew of Greece & Denmark, at which point she became "HRH Princess Andrew of Greece & Denmark" in accordance with practice in the Greek Royal House.

Philip assumed the surname of Mountbatten when he dropped his Greek royal style and title and naturalized to British citizenship. When he was created Duke of Edinburgh by George VI, he ceased to have a surname as he was granted royal rank as HRH.

Also, the Greek Royal House has never used a surname, a point which King Constantine has consistently reiterated throughout his legal battles with the Greek government for many years. This so-called House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg has never existed as the senior Danish line is the House of Oldenburg, which currently reigns. The cadet line is "of Greece & Denmark" and that's it.

 

[branchg]

Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary did not use the title The Queen Mother, but they both had it - Queen Alexandra from 1910 to 1925 (from George V's accession to the Throne to her death), Queen Mary from 1936 to 1952 (from Edward VIII and then George VI's accession to the Throne, and until Queen Elizabeth II became Queen).
Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld (Queen Victoria's mother) may have been the Queen's mother, but she never held the title of The Queen Mother for a simple reason; in order to be a Queen Mother, you have to be a Queen Consort first - and she was never that.

"Queen Mother" is simply a style, not a title. In the UK, a Queen Consort is officially "HM The Queen" while her husband is The Sovereign and "HM Queen X" if they become a dowager queen. Neither Queen Alexandra nor Queen Mary ever used the style of Queen Mother nor was it ever announced they would be known as such.

Queen Elizabeth assumed the style of "HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother" in an announcement after her daughter became The Sovereign to avoid confusion with the fact the reigning Queen was Elizabeth II.

 

[Artemisia]

"Queen Mother" is simply a style, not a title. In the UK, a Queen Consort is officially "HM The Queen" while her husband is The Sovereign and "HM Queen X" if they become a dowager queen. Neither Queen Alexandra nor Queen Mary ever used the style of Queen Mother nor was it ever announced they would be known as such.

Queen Elizabeth assumed the style of "HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother" in an announcement after her daughter became The Sovereign to avoid confusion with the fact the reigning Queen was Elizabeth II.

Strictly speaking, Queen Mother is a title, a style, and a position.
As for the rest, I am in full agreement with you and never stated otherwise.

All types of Queen are usually known simply as "Queen Name".
When a man becomes King, his wife is automatically his Queen. However, no special announcement is made that she is the Queen Consort - even though that's exactly what a wife of a Monarch is; she's known simply as "Queen Name". Similarly, when a Queen Dowager's child becomes King or Queen Regnant, she automatically becomes Queen Mother; there is no need for a special announcement, and she's also known just as "Queen Name".

In case of Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother, a special announcement was needed not to grant her the title and style (which she had the moment Elizabeth II ascended to the Throne), but to announce she is officially to be known as The Queen Mother - something that had never been needed before.

 

[Tsar bobo Iv]

thank you branchg,Artemisia,and An Ard Ri for clearing things up for me

 

[ladongas]

Duelling countesses?

Assume an earl has several ex-wives. Each of them is Firstname, Countess of Lastname. The earl dies. His eldest son succeeds him and becomes Earl Lastname. Who, then, becomes the Dowager Countess? The mother of the new earl? Or the widow, the fourth wife?