The Grimaldi Ancestors

[JR76]

It is, however, a French speaking state, and so using the German definition of HSH is inaccurate. Albert is formally Son Altesse Sérénissime le Prince Albert, Alexander, Louis, Pierre, Prince Souveraign de Monaco. That is the French royal style Son Altesse Sérénissime, not the German noble title Durchlaucht.

I've always interpreted Durchlaucht and SAS (HSH) as being the same rank but in two (or three) different language. Is there a difference in rank between them?


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[Duc_et_Pair]

A monarch is not necessarily a royal. The Pope is a monarch, a Sovereign ruler, maybe a dictator even, but he is not royal.

 

[JR76]

A monarch is not necessarily a royal. The Pope is a monarch, a Sovereign ruler, maybe a dictator even, but he is not royal.

Does that mean that, according to your interpretation,the medieval elected Kings of Scandinavia and even later the Kings of Poland wasn't royal?


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[Duc_et_Pair]

I've always interpreted Durchlaucht and SAS (HSH) as being the same rank but in two (or three) different language. Is there a difference in rank between them?


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Durchlaucht comes from the latin word Serenitas. So it is correctly translated as "Your Serene (Highness)". In older times this form was also used in combination with a royal style: Su Alteza Real la Serenísima y Excelentísima Princesa de Asturias Doña María Luisa de Borbón (Her Royal Highness the Serene and Excellent Princess of Asturias, Doña María Luisa de Bourbon).

Majestät - Majesty
(all reigning European Sovereigns except Luxembourg, Liechtenstein and Monaco)

Königliche Hoheit - Royal Highness
(the Grand-Duke of Luxembourg and children from all reigning European Sovereigns except Liechtenstein and Monaco)

Hoheit - Highness
(former Sovereign Dukes like Mecklenburg or Sachsen-Coburg, or junior Princes like the sons of Prince Joachim of Denmark and some princely Houses)

Durchlaucht - Serene Highness
(heads of princely Houses and -sometimes- children from heads of princely Houses)

Erlaucht - Illustrious Highness
(Sovereign Counts or Counts from the Uradel (eldest nobility))

Hochgeboren - Highborn
(Marquesses, Counts, Viscounts)

Hochgeboren - Highborn
(Barons from the Uradel (eldest nobility))

Hochwohlgeboren - High- and Wellborn
(Barons, Knights, untitled nobility)

Examples:

Ihre Majestät der König von Schweden
(His Majesty The King of Sweden)

Ihre Königliche Hoheit der Prinz von Wales
(His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales)

Ihre Hoheit der Prinz von Ligne
(His Highness the Prince or Ligne)

Ihre Durchlaucht der Erbprinz von und zu Liechtenstein
(His Serene Highness the Hereditary Prince of Liechtenstein)

Ihre Erlaucht der Graf von Neipperg
(His Illustrious Highness the Count of Neipperg)

Der Hochgeboren Frau Gräfin von Merenberg
The Highborn Lady, the Countess of Merenberg

Der Hochwohlgeboren Herrn Freiherr von Weiszäcker
The High- and Wellborn Lord, the Baron von Weiszäcker

 

[NotHRH]

You must be all crazy. This Gwyneth staff is only a rumor.

Exactly, this "THE " order of ranking - and officially that's all there is to it. Unofficially (=in real life) things are done differently. This has been my point all along - some disagree with what I have written and that's okay. We all see this situation differently. I like others to give their opinions and, as far as I concerned, we can disagree with each other. No one should be offended - I am not offended with anybody's opinions and no one should be offended with my opinion. C'est la vie! Actually I enjoy (ed) this discussion and look forward to more in the future.

 

[Ish]

I've always interpreted Durchlaucht and SAS (HSH) as being the same rank but in two (or three) different language. Is there a difference in rank between them?


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In Germanic realms, HSH was lower than simply HH and was typically associated with the nobility. In France though HSH was higher than HH and was associated with lesser royals.

The whole argument about whether or not the Grimaldis are or are not royals began under the issue of what the HSH means - it's fair to reason that as Monaco is a French speaking country, using the SAS, a protectorate of France, and at one point the Prince of Monaco was a vassal of the King of France, then their HSH takes more from the French definition than the German one.

 

[NotHRH]

In Germanic realms, HSH was lower than simply HH and was typically associated with the nobility. In France though HSH was higher than HH and was associated with lesser royals.

The whole argument about whether or not the Grimaldis are or are not royals began under the issue of what the HSH means - it's fair to reason that as Monaco is a French speaking country, using the SAS, a protectorate of France, and at one point the Prince of Monaco was a vassal of the King of France, then their HSH takes more from the French definition than the German one.

In that case are the HSH Prince/ss of Liechenstein = to the HSH Prince/ss of Monaco? Thought all HSH's of Europe were on equal footing?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In Germanic realms, HSH was lower than simply HH and was typically associated with the nobility. In France though HSH was higher than HH and was associated with lesser royals.

[...]

There are no "lesser royals". You are royal or you are not royal. There is not such a difference between France (of Italy, or Austria, or Germany) in the use of the predicate Altesse Sérénissime. The Houses of Monaco, Liechtenstein, Croÿ, Arenberg, De Lobkowicz, Esterhazy, Gonzaga, Thurn und Taxis, Orsini, Visconti, and name these well-souding families, all are pretty comparable. In general the predicate is used "for persons of nobility born into a former sovereign princely House, not being a Kingdom."

 

[Ish]

There are no "lesser royals". You are royal or you are not royal. There is not such a difference between France (of Italy, or Austria, or Germany) in the use of the predicate Altesse Sérénissime. The Houses of Monaco, Liechtenstein, Croÿ, Arenberg, De Lobkowicz, Esterhazy, Gonzaga, Thurn und Taxis, Orsini, Visconti, and name these well-souding families, all are pretty comparable. In general the predicate is used "for persons of nobility born into a former sovereign princely House, not being a Kingdom."

First of all, the whole fact that there is a ranking system based on styles of royals means that there are "lesser" royals.

Second of all, yes there really is a difference between the French and German use of the title. In German speaking realms it was used for noble houses, the one exception being Liechtenstein which the Almanach recognizes as being royal. The French used it for members of the royal family who were not children or grandchildren of a king (and therefore were less than those members of the family who were the children or grandchildren of a king).

 

[Ish]

In that case are the HSH Prince/ss of Liechenstein = to the HSH Prince/ss of Monaco? Thought all HSH's of Europe were on equal footing?

They would be ranked under different systems really. Every monarchy in Europe is at this point considered to be equal; if Hans-Adam II is "higher than" Albert II it's because he's reigned longer than Albert, not because he somehow outranks him. At the same time, Albert, while an HSH, would be "higher than" Felipe VI, an HM, as he's ruled longer.

We've put a lot of argument into the styling, but ultimately outside of the individual realms they're not necessarily significant. Well, I mean, there's an argument that the Prince Consorts, as HRHs, are beneath the Queen Consorts, as HMs, but that's a debate that I think few other than Prince Henrik really fuss over. Within some realms there is a deliberate ranking - within Norway, you have HM, HRH, and HH, which all correspond clearly to an individual's rank within the family - while in others there isn't - all the Liechtensteiner royals are HSH. But you're not going to see Hans-Adam II or Albert II bow to Harald V.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In 2015 it has no relevance anymore: SH, HH, HRH, HIH and HI&RH but until not so long ago the two principalities were not taken very au sérieux by the rest.

Still there has not been any royal State Visit from and to these two countries. The Prince of Monaco makes a lot of Official Visits but the only Visites d'État (which has to be agreed with the host country) were to Ireland (2011) and to Czech Republic (2015). There was no incoming State Visit.

 

[melina premiere]

Duc and Pair, you don't like Monaco , it is your right but don't say idioties, you want to show that you know all but you know nothing, absolutely nothing.
Any country with a government , a national parlement and is member of the Onu is taken au sérieux. big country or tiny country. Happily you are not president of ONU because I would be worried about the future of the world
Ptince Albert begins his reign in april 2005 and not in 2011
he did a lot of official visits which are very important because he is reigning and also governing as head of states, not like the other Kings or Queens of Europa. He is present at each agreement with a country .
Offitial visits
Suisse, China, Estonia,Timor oriental,Belgium, Austria,Mongolia,(2008) Romania,Croatia,USA,Italia,Senegal,Emirat, San Marino(2009)
Portugal, Japan,Lebanon,Ireland,Lutvia and Estonia,(2011)
Malte,Burkina Faso,South Korea;Germany,Kazakstan, Israel,(2012)
Russia federation
Monténégro, Chile,Czech Republic(2015)
He received in official visit in the palace of Monaco (présidents Chirac, Sarkozy and Hollande,president of Bosnia Herzegovia,Grand Master of Malta,, Ben KI Moon, president of ONU,president of Slovania,presidents of San Marino,president of Monténégro
Prince Albert is each year at the general opening of the ONU where he makes a speech as head of state and he is received as the other heads of states at the white house by the president O Bama.
He is present at the mondial big meetings as head of states of a country, francophonie summit, business summit, OCDE and so,
There are a lot big meetings in Monaco as Interpol or CIO,
Monaco is a rich country with a bufget which could make a lot of jalious .
Prince Albert is as royal as the other royals, he is the guest of royal meetings as the jubelee of the queen Elisabeth and he was taken in photos with the reigning Kings and reigning princes.The Grimaldi family is also Cousn of the Queen Elisabeth, the grandgrand Mother was of the family of Hamilton who was also family of the queen mother family. Principauty has a glorious history as the other countries and it is not useful to deny it.or it is a snobism.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

Still there has not been any royal State Visit from and to these two countries. The Prince of Monaco makes a lot of Official Visits but the only Visites d'État (which has to be agreed with the host country) were to Ireland (2011) and to Czech Republic (2015). There was no incoming State Visit.

I believe that in 2012 they made a state visit to my home country of Poland. There are photos of the visit and they received Polish orders. There may be other state visits you are missing from your list but off the top of my head I only know about my own country.

 

[NotHRH]

They would be ranked under different systems really. Every monarchy in Europe is at this point considered to be equal; if Hans-Adam II is "higher than" Albert II it's because he's reigned longer than Albert, not because he somehow outranks him. At the same time, Albert, while an HSH, would be "higher than" Felipe VI, an HM, as he's ruled longer.

We've put a lot of argument into the styling, but ultimately outside of the individual realms they're not necessarily significant. Well, I mean, there's an argument that the Prince Consorts, as HRHs, are beneath the Queen Consorts, as HMs, but that's a debate that I think few other than Prince Henrik really fuss over. Within some realms there is a deliberate ranking - within Norway, you have HM, HRH, and HH, which all correspond clearly to an individual's rank within the family - while in others there isn't - all the Liechtensteiner royals are HSH. But you're not going to see Hans-Adam II or Albert II bow to Harald V.

Just a small correction about all Liechenstein royals being HSH: from Wikipedia: From her birth in 1967, Sophie was styled*HRH Princess Sophie of Bavaria. In 1973, her father inherited the family name and style*Duke in Bavaria*from his great-uncle, who had adopted him as heir in 1965; Sophie was then styled as*HRH Duchess Sophie in Bavaria, Princess of Bavaria. On her marriage in 1993 she became*HRH The Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein, Countess of Rietberg, the Principality of Liechtenstein recognising and retaining her use of the style

 

[Ish]

True, but Sophie's HRH is not because she's a Liechtensteiner royal, but through a claim to a title that hasn't ruled for almost 100 years. It's kind of like Caroline of Monaco's HRH - they acknowledge it, yes, but it is in pretence.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Lady Mary Victoria Douglas-Hamilton, the wife of Prince Albert I began with the title of Her Ladyship. Upon her marriage to Prince Albert, she had the title of Her Serene Highness.

The Grimaldi Princes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJKbJsWyvE0

Princess Louise-Hippolyte was the daughter of Prince Antoine I. She could succeed only if she either married a Grimaldi or her husband changed his name and arms to take on those of the Grimaldis.

 

[Ish]

Lady Mary Victoria Douglas-Hamilton, the wife of Prince Albert I began with the title of Her Ladyship. Upon her marriage to Prince Albert, she had the title of Her Serene Highness.

She started with the courtesy title Lady Mary Victoria Douglas-Hamilton, as her father was a Duke. When she married Albert I she became Her Serene Highness, The Hereditary Princess of Monaco, but became Lady Mary again when the marriage was annulled. Then she became Countess Mary Victoria Festetics de Tolna on her second marriage, finally ending up Her Serene Highness Princess Mary Victoria Festetics de Tolna, when her second husband, Taszilo Festitics, was made a Prince by King Francis Joseph I of Hungary in 1911.

It is through Lady Mary that the Grimaldis are related to the other reigning monarchs of Europe (as well as more than a few non-reigning ones).

 

[NotHRH]

True, but Sophie's HRH is not because she's a Liechtensteiner royal, but through a claim to a title that hasn't ruled for almost 100 years. It's kind of like Caroline of Monaco's HRH - they acknowledge it, yes, but it is in pretence.

And also Princess Margaretha, who is both a Princess of Liechtenstein and a Princess of Luxembourg, has retained her HRH style from her Luxembourg royal title.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I believe that in 2012 they made a state visit to my home country of Poland. There are photos of the visit and they received Polish orders. There may be other state visits you are missing from your list but off the top of my head I only know about my own country.

The Palais Princier itself only lists Irlande and La République Tchèque as Visite d'État. All other visits, to Chine (2007), Allemage (2008), Belgique (2008), Estonie (2008), France (incoming - 2008), Autriche (2008), Croatie (2009), Sénégal (2009), Roumanie (2009), Slovenie (incoming - 2009), Portugal (2010), Les Açores (2010), Estonie (2011), Allemagne (2012), Lituanie (2012), Kazakhstan (2012), Pologne (2012), Turquie (2012), France (2012), Palaos (2013), Nations-Unies (incoming - 2013), Monténégro (2013), Fédération de Russie (2013), France (incoming - 2013), Monténégro (incoming - 2014), La Croix-Rouge International (incoming - 2014), Pays-Bas (2014), Principauté de Saint-Marin (incoming - 2015) were listed as a Visite Officielle, lasting only a couple of hours and usually without too much tralala.

An exception was the "Visite Officielle aux Pays-Bas" where the King and Queen indeed offered a gala banquet in honour of the Prince and Princess. Sadly Princess Charlène had to cancel her attendance. See picture. You only need to see the blue "daily" uniforms of the footmen to dedicate the level of formality. The footmen in ceremonial tenues: see picture. That is already an indication for the protocollary level of a visit.

 

[melina premiere]

For me, there is no difference between a visite officielle

My God! you judge the relations between two countries with the tenues of the servants! I am not surprised with you !
there are no difference between a visit d'etat and une visite officielle, the voisits lasted always 2or 3 days , the first day with the meeting of the head of the state of the visited country and the banquet, the day 2 with very often the prime minister ot the chief of parlemant and visits of the entreprises and day 3 very often visits of other towns of this country, look at the agandas of these visits, . Behind these visits there are contrats , a team of business men is with the prince and there are contacts between the countries, if there are visits no matter the visite d'etat or visite officielle, there are interests behind these visits, economic interests, cultural interests or environmental interest
Albert was among the head of states at the very important COP 21 with Charles of Wales,where were the other Kings, Queens ?
Since the prince Albert is prince sovereign , there area lot of ambassadand consulat which have open in Monaco.
You don't appreciat Monaco and his prince, but who are you to judge that a country is not worth, is not important, his history is nothing, the ancestors are nothing,?Monaco is a principauty whith a dinasty the Grimaldi family who is ruling since 800 YEARS it is the most old dynasty ruling in Euroma,

(..)

All the people of the countries are pride of their history, of their dinasty and their ancestors if there are still a monarchy or even if there a republic T respect their history and their country because a people of USA is pride of the story of his country like a English people is pride of his queen or a french people is pride of his history


I think it is insulting these people when somebody is always denying their monarchy, their dinasty or their country because he judge that this country is small ..... I will not repeat what I read in these last comments
As we are on the Monaco board, Monaco is a principauty which has a dinasty as the other monarchies, which has along history with princes, which is an independant country which is at the UN since 1993, and WHich has a prince which is invited at all the festivities of the royals , a lot of heads of states, Kings, queens came to attend the funeral of the Princess Grace and at the funeral of the Prince Rainier and who came to attend the wedding of the prince Albert. (..)

 

[NotHRH]

I really think it's cause Monaco is so small (area-wise), but it also the most densely populated country in the world. Monaco and Liechenstein are Europe's only 2 principalities, but both their Sovereign Princes and populations are the richest in Europe. Both countries and princely families are laughing all the way to the bank ?. Don't think Albert and Company give a ? what people think of him, his family, or his country! EASY lies the head that wears the Crown!!! ??

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

For me, there is no difference between a visite officielle

My God! you judge the relations between two countries with the tenues of the servants! I am not surprised with you !
[...]

No need to be surprised. Just check the facts. From the Protocol Office of the EU - followed by all EU memberstates (including Monaco):

Une Visite d’État est une visite officielle d’un Chef d’État étranger à l’invitation d'un Chef d'État. Il s’agit de la concrétisation des bonnes relations entre les États concernés au niveau le plus élevé. Le programme détaillé est préparé par le Protocole en étroite collaboration avec les services du Chef d'État et avec l’Ambassade de l’État étranger. Une Visite d’État dure en général deux à trois jours. Elle se compose d’une cérémonie officielle d’accueil et d’adieu avec le protocole plus élevé, et d’un dîner de gala offert par le Chef d'État.

Une Visite Officielle est une visite d’un Chef d’État étranger à l’invitation du Gouvernement. On parle également d’une visite officielle lorsqu’un Premier Ministre ou un Ministre des Affaires étrangères rend visite à son homologue à l’invitation de ce dernier. La durée d'une visite officielle varie de un à deux jours pour un Chef d'État; celle d'un Premier Ministre ou Ministre des Affaires étrangères est de un jour.

TRANSLATION

A State Visit is a visit by a foreign head of state on the invitation a head of state. It is intended to cement relations between the relevant states at the highest level. A detailed schedule is drawn up by the Protocol in close collaboration with the staff of the head of state and the Embassy of the foreign state. A State Visit generally lasts two or three days. It includes an official welcome and a farewell ceremony with the highest protocol, and a gala banquet hosted by the head of state.

An Official Visit is a visit by a foreign head of state on the invitation of the Government. The term ‘official visit’ is also used when a foreign Prime Minister or Minister of Foreign Affairs pay a visit to his or her counterpart on the invitation of the latter. An Official Visit by a head of state lasts one or two days, while those by a Prime Minister or a Minister of Foreign Affairs lasts one day.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

I really think it's cause Monaco is so small (area-wise), but it also the most densely populated country in the world. Monaco and Liechenstein are Europe's only 2 principalities, but both their Sovereign Princes and populations are the richest in Europe. Both countries and princely families are laughing all the way to the bank ?. Don't think Albert and Company give a ? what people think of him, his family, or his country! EASY lies the head that wears the Crown!!! ??

Andorra is also a principality. It has two co-princes, the Bishop of Urgell and the president of France. Right now François Hollande of France is one of the co-princes of Andorra.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

For me, there is no difference between a visite officielle

My God! you judge the relations between two countries with the tenues of the servants! [...]

Just look to Downton Abbey and then you can already see that Charles Carson (the butler), Thomas Barrow (the underbutler), John Bates (the valet), Joseph Molesley (the first footman), Andrew Parker (the second footman), etc. not only have different tenues to designate their function but also different tenues to go with an event. This practice is still followed by royal or aristocrat houses which still maintain a formal Household. When you want to know the (protocollary) level of a visit, it is often enough to look to the uniforms of the servants indeed. An official visit, or a cravate noir event, etc. has a different tenue from a State Visit or a cravate blanc event. That is no fantasy but just fact.

- The Prince of Monaco made a visit, this was no official visit, do no demi-gala for the servants. This was no State Visit, so no grand gala for the servants. What you see is the "neat tenue": formal blue without gold galon: see picture.

- A more formal event will see the servants in demi-gala, you can see some gold galon: see picture and see picture.

- The highest level of protocol for servants is when they wear grand gala: maximal gold galon: see picture and see picture.

So in contrary to what you claim, at all palaces, royal and republican, a difference is made in State Visits and official visits. And indeed, as my pictures proved it, it is also no nonsense to look to the uniforms of the servants. Or that of the Guards of Honour. Or to look to the escorte (is it by horses or "just" by motorcade?). All these details together tell a whole story indeed.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Are any of the Grimaldis descended from Napoleon I's wife, Empress Josephine?

 

[Countessmeout]

The Polignacs (Pierre's family had close ties to the monarchy, ancestress Yolande wife of the 1st duke was a favorite of Marie Antoinette. Her son Auguste was PM under Charles X. Pierre is descended from her youngest son Camille.

The closest link to Monaco I find is Theodolinde, Eugene's daughter wed the Duke of Urach. Duke's 2nd wife was Florestine of Monaco, sister of Charles III. It was her who had the German claim to Monaco. If Charlotte had not been made heir by the French her line stood to inherit, but not wanting a German in power, French allowed Louis II to name his natural child heir. So no biological link, simply Theo's daughters half siblings to the Urach claim.

They are descended by Stephanie, who was adopted by Napoleon. Stephanie's youngest child Marie Amelia married the Duke of Hamilton and their youngest Mary Victoria's 1st husband was Albert I of Monaco.She was mother of Louis II making her Rainier's great-grandmother.

 

[Iain]

Andorra is also a principality. It has two co-princes, the Bishop of Urgell and the president of France. Right now François Hollande of France is one of the co-princes of Andorra.

And Wales is also a principality.

 

[Ish]

And Wales is also a principality.

Wales is not a principality. Wales is a part of the United Kingdom and is not an independent state.

 

[Countessmeout]

And Wales is also a principality.

Wales has not been a principality since the 1500s when it officially became part of England. Prince of Wales is simply a title, like Duke of Cambridge. If a principality, Charles would a sovereign Prince which he isn't.

 

[burbankstorylady]

Wales has not been a principality since the 1500s when it officially became part of England. Prince of Wales is simply a title, like Duke of Cambridge. If a principality, Charles would a sovereign Prince which he isn't.

Yes, Wales, unlike Monaco, is not a sovereign nation. Well, it is, I suppose, but its sovereignty is tied to Great Britain. Britain controls its borders. The Prince of Monaco is a constitutional monarch, while the Prince of Wales is just ... it's basically a courtesy title, although special, I guess.... but it doesn't mean anything. The holder is not a sovereign, has no constitutional role in Wales...