Romanian Succession, Claimants, Titles and Restoration

[Tatiana Maria]

I understand that King Michael may have used terms such as "the Line of Succession to the Crown of Romania" or the "line of succession to the Throne",
but that doesn't mean that any of those have any legal meaning in the Romanian Republic.

I agree completely, and that is why I said my comments were not directed at you but at those who argue that the Hohenzollerns (or Nicolae de Roumanie, for that matter) are somehow more legitimate successors to King Michael than HM Margareta because they are male and the former monarchical constitutions of Romania defined the succession to the Crown as male-only. (Perhaps your post was not directed at my comments either, but I thought it best to clarify just in case.)

Indeed, King Michael's words did not carry any legal authority in the republican state of Romania, but neither do the former monarchical constitutions of Romania, which have been abolished decades ago. And in contrast to Margareta, the Hohenzollern men and Nicolae do not even have the legitimacy of semi-official recognition as head of the former reigning dynasty from the Romanian government.

With or without successor: sooner or later the inheritance of the domains and the castles will become an issue. Will it equally be distributed amongt all survivinh heirs of the late King Michael, meaning Medforth Mills, Kreuger and Biarneix? Or will there be a Family Foundation as a legal entity owning all assets and place it at the disposal of fhe furure head, whether that will be Elisabeta Karina or Nicholas? We will see...

According to the Fundamental Rules:

Article 3

3) At present, the Elisabeth Palace is the working residence of the Custodian of the Crown and the Royal Family. Decisions regarding the royal residences can be revoked or changed by the Head of the family at any time. However, Savarsin Castle is to be the private property of the Head of the Family and Pelishor Castle is to be forever the Seat of the Royal Dynasty.

Article 14

1) All real estate and heritage assets on Romania’s territory, owned by a member of the Royal House of Romania will be registered with the relevant Romanian authorities and will be administered according to the owner’s decisions and the applicable inheritance regulations.

3) Prior to waiving the rights to any property belonging to the heritage of the Royal House of Romania, its members must request the consent of the Head of the House.
​

 

[Blog Real]

Will Nicolae be called upon to be head of the royal house and custodian of the crown in the future?

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Would not Nicolae have to first be made a Prince of Romania?

 

[Benjamin]

Would not Nicolae have to first be made a Prince of Romania?

Not necessarily. Nicholas would only have to be reinstated to the line of succession in order to take up the responsibility for which his grandfather hoped for him to assume. He would not have to be given again the style and title HRH Prince of Romania, which he bore for five years and which many Romanian monarchists still consider him to be. The only daughter of Princess Helen (Nicholas's sister) and the only child of Princess Sophie, who are both dynasts currently, are not at all likely to wish to assume the mantle - for understandable reasons. However, the Custodian of the Crown has not yet adapted the line of succession to include the only grandchild of King Michael and Queen Anne who shows a sincere interest in containing the royal family's legacy.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Not necessarily. Nicholas would only have to be reinstated to the line of succession in order to take up the responsibility for which his grandfather hoped for him to assume. He would not have to be given again the style and title HRH Prince of Romania, which he bore for five years and which many Romanian monarchists still consider him to be. The only daughter of Princess Helen (Nicholas's sister) and the only child of Princess Sophie, who are both dynasts currently, are not at all likely to wish to assume the mantle - for understandable reasons. However, the Custodian of the Crown has not yet adapted the line of succession to include the only grandchild of King Michael and Queen Anne who shows a sincere interest in containing the royal family's legacy.

The successor to Princess Margareta, the Custodian of the Crown, is Nicholas' mother, Princess Elena. And Nicholas is very much on absolutely non-speaking terms with his mother.

Most likely the Custodian of the Crown leaves this hot potato to her successor: as long as the waters are so deep between her nephew Nicholas and her sister Princess Elena, it is unlikely Princess Margareta will do anything. Du moment that Princess Elena and her son Nicholas have fully reconciled, I can imagine that this opens a way for Princess Margareta to adapt her father's line of succession.

After all: if she includes Nicholas now, who is a persona non grata to his own mother, she "reigns beyond her grave" and enforces the line of succession while her very own successor Princess Elena becomes the future head and is then faced with a fait accompli. This can cause a conflict between the Custodian and her successor and that is also in no one's interest.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Referring to "Princess Margareta" is incorrect as it is neither her official title, nor the title by which she chooses to be known and by which the state authorities of Romania address her (Custodian of the Crown), nor the title which she carries according to the house laws (Queen):

2) The Head of the Royal House of Romania, by all common practice and convention, is de jure or de facto Sovereign in terms of their authority over the Royal House of Romania, at any time. Immediately upon the death of the Head of the Royal House of Romania, without further proclamation, the Heir Apparent or Heir Presumptive, whichever shall be living and first in the line to the succession at that moment in time, shall from that moment assume the rank or style King or Queen, regardless of the Family's position as a reigning or non-reigning Dynasty and regardless of the fact that they may or may not later choose against the use of such style or designation.​

https://coronanachrichten.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/p0002_fundamentalrules.pdf

See also:

Prince Radu referred to his wife as Queen Margareta when he signed the book of condolences at the British Embassy in Bucharest following the death of Queen Elizabeth II: https://www.romaniaregala.ro/jurnal/condoleante-la-ambasada-regatului-unit/

If for one reason or another one prefers not to use Custodian of the Crown or Queen, it is perfectly accurate to refer to her as simply Margareta.

 

[Toledo]

The successor to Princess Margareta, the Custodian of the Crown, is Nicholas' mother, Princess Elena. And Nicholas is very much on absolutely non-speaking terms with his mother.

Most likely the Custodian of the Crown leaves this hot potato to her successor: as long as the waters are so deep between her nephew Nicholas and her sister Princess Elena, it is unlikely Princess Margareta will do anything. Du moment that Princess Elena and her son Nicholas have fully reconciled, I can imagine that this opens a way for Princess Margareta to adapt her father's line of succession.

After all: if she includes Nicholas now, who is a persona non grata to his own mother, she "reigns beyond her grave" and enforces the line of succession while her very own successor Princess Elena becomes the future head and is then faced with a fait accompli. This can cause a conflict between the Custodian and her successor and that is also in no one's interest.

Margareta is in one difficult spot, if she's gone the entire restoration goals would stop if a person like her nephew takes over. You can't be on an endless family dispute with your very own mother and be a head of state people look up to. They should make a truce and line up with Margareta's behavior acting regal and not involved into petty family drama.

 

[Heavs]

From Margareta's thread:

I was reading news and articles on her situation and the dispute with her cousins. They still insist if the throne is restored by Parliament, it's them, the Hohenzollern men, and not Margareta nor any other female who should be crowned. Now I see why her dad, the last King of Rumania, changed the succession, the surnames and asked the government his daughter is the one in charge after his passing.
She is doing great according to the news, representing the government in her unusual status.

The Parliament should just go ahead and restore the monarchy, she seems to them extremely important for public relations and, like the Windsors, change the dynasty name for real into a Romanian historical name.

I can't imagine any realistic scenario where any Hohenzollerns and the previous line of succession were offered the throne. It was outdated when it happened before in 1866 but now, no way.

The Hohenzollern-Sigmaringens are not Romanian, do not work for or with Romania, do not speak the language, do not have any public interest in Romania and are not Romanian Orthodox. I thought Karl accepted King Mihai's decision/suggestion to the Romanian government in 2011. I know that there were others further down the line that were unhappy though and some monarchist groups within Romania but I think that they were in the minority.

If the descendants of King Mihai want to continue or grow what they currently have then they have so decisions to make in the next few years, especially as Nicolae seems determined to set up a sort of rival court and no one else in his generation seem at all interested in the prospect.

I'm not saying he should take over, far from it but if he's the only one who publicly lives and works in Romania and his sister who is next in line publicly supported him and lives a private life herself. If he and his mother can ever reconcile then he might become viable.

I think it suits the Republic of Romania just fine to have Margareta there as a popular, semi official figure that they can use whilst still being a republic and not going through the upheaval, expense and controversy of a huge change of government (especially as many in government might have aspirations of being Head of State themselves one day.

 

[Somebody]

Thanks for the update. I believe Margarete of Romania is related to the Imperial House of Brazil via a maternal line? Hope she sees this from the cousins and makes one to clarify her line of succession, too.

The official line of succession (according to Margareta) is on their website: Linia de succesiune.

 

[Prinsara]

Can someone please explain briefly what is the matter between Nicholas and Elena? I only know his grandfather kicked him out for his illegitimate child, seemingly.

I suppose the rules do not allow Margareta to just adopt/designate someone as an immediate heir? (Or she probably would have done that already.)

 

[Toledo]

The official line of succession (according to Margareta) is on their website: Linia de succesiune.

All ladies! It's a perfect lineup to get back and centuries of male preference in the Hohenzollern families. Margerete could also get inspired by the Saudi Kingdom system where I believe the family elects the successor, so she can choose which relative is best suited to continue her work for Romania when she's gone.

1. HRH Princess Elena of Romania;
2. Elisabeth Karina of Roumanie;
3. HRH Princess Sofia of Romania;
4. Elisabeth Maria Biarneix;
5. HRH Princess Maria of Romania.

 

[Prinsara]

All ladies! It's a perfect lineup to get back and centuries of male preference in the Hohenzollern families. Margerete could also get inspired by the Saudi Kingdom system where I believe the family elects the successor, so she can choose which relative is best suited to continue her work for Romania when she's gone.

1. HRH Princess Elena of Romania;
2. Elisabeth Karina of Roumanie;
3. HRH Princess Sofia of Romania;
4. Elisabeth Maria Biarneix;
5. HRH Princess Maria of Romania.

You're forgetting it only exists because King Mihai had five daughters to start with.

 

[Toledo]

You're forgetting it only exists because King Mihai had five daughters to start with.

And Margerete didn't marry until late in life, she and King Charles III are like a year apart only.

 

[Prinsara]

And Margerete didn't marry until late in life, she and King Charles III are like a year apart only.

It's one of those interesting what-ifs... if she'd married Gordon Brown and basically taken herself out of the running for his career instead... then we would have Elena Custodian of the Crown and the exact same issues. In spite of a nail, indeed.

 

[Heavs]

Can someone please explain briefly what is the matter between Nicholas and Elena? I only know his grandfather kicked him out for his illegitimate child, seemingly.

I suppose the rules do not allow Margareta to just adopt/designate someone as an immediate heir? (Or she probably would have done that already.)

I'm not an expect but I think allegedly it's for the same issue. Elena pointedly referred to Maria Alexandra as her 2nd granddaughter in her acknowledgement of her birth whereas Nicolae and Alina Marie made no mention of his elder daughter.

Of course there may be more to it - he was also charged with assault in Switzerland IIRC- but I doubt we'll ever get the full story publicly.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I'm not an expect but I think allegedly it's for the same issue. Elena pointedly referred to Maria Alexandra as her 2nd granddaughter in her acknowledgement of her birth whereas Nicolae and Alina Marie made no mention of his elder daughter.

Which suggests that, as with Albert II of Belgium, the core issue was his treatment of his illegitimate child, rather than having an illegitimate child per se. Of course, as you said, we will probably never know the full story.

 

[Dantheman]

Princess Elena as a heir

At the moment Margareta is custodian of the crown. In my opinion she has succeeded so far because of three reasons:
*she retains a strong public presence
*appears to have close ties to other royal families including the Windsors which affords her a degree of recognition and legitimacy
*her link as the eldest child of the late King Michael

Now I understand that Elena is also a child of king Michael and the heir to Margareta but I feel like I know nothing about her. So are you able to explain your opinions to me please:
*what do we know about Elena and her daughter as the next two in the line of succession.
*do we think people will remain interested in the Romanian royal family once Margareta is no longer with us, particularly since Elena and her daughter don’t seem to get as much publicity as Margareta.

Thanks again and I hope these questions aren’t silly or annoying!

 

[CyrilVladisla]

The namesake of Princess Elena was her paternal grandmother Helen, Queen Mother of Romania.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Elena_of_Romania

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

At the moment Margareta is custodian of the crown. In my opinion she has succeeded so far because of three reasons:
*she retains a strong public presence
*appears to have close ties to other royal families including the Windsors which affords her a degree of recognition and legitimacy
*her link as the eldest child of the late King Michael

Now I understand that Elena is also a child of king Michael and the heir to Margareta but I feel like I know nothing about her. So are you able to explain your opinions to me please:
*what do we know about Elena and her daughter as the next two in the line of succession.
*do we think people will remain interested in the Romanian royal family once Margareta is no longer with us, particularly since Elena and her daughter don’t seem to get as much publicity as Margareta.

Thanks again and I hope these questions aren’t silly or annoying!

Princess Elena is the successor. We can not rule out that mother and son will reconcile at one point. Only then the road is free for aunt Princess Margareta to reinstate her nephew Nicholas.

It makes no sense for Princess Margareta to reinstate her nephew as the Number Two, as long as there is an icy distance between him and the Number One, his mother Princess Elena.

 

[PalaceWatcher]

Referring to "Princess Margareta" is incorrect as it is neither her official title, nor the title by which she chooses to be known and by which the state authorities of Romania address her (Custodian of the Crown), nor the title which she carries according to the house laws (Queen):

2) The Head of the Royal House of Romania, by all common practice and convention, is de jure or de facto Sovereign in terms of their authority over the Royal House of Romania, at any time. Immediately upon the death of the Head of the Royal House of Romania, without further proclamation, the Heir Apparent or Heir Presumptive, whichever shall be living and first in the line to the succession at that moment in time, shall from that moment assume the rank or style King or Queen, regardless of the Family's position as a reigning or non-reigning Dynasty and regardless of the fact that they may or may not later choose against the use of such style or designation.​

https://coronanachrichten.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/p0002_fundamentalrules.pdf

See also:

If for one reason or another one prefers not to use Custodian of the Crown or Queen, it is perfectly accurate to refer to her as simply Margareta.

You are completely right. Referring to Margareta as "Princess" is incorrect. Duc et Pair and others could just refer to her as Margareta, it would be entirely appropriate and polite.

 

[maria-olivia]

Happy to have a Romanian Poster !

 

[Toledo]

You are completely right. Referring to Margareta as "Princess" is incorrect. Duc et Pair and others could just refer to her as Margareta, it would be entirely appropriate and polite.

A belated welcome to the Royal Forums! ?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

You are completely right. Referring to Margareta as "Princess" is incorrect. Duc et Pair and others could just refer to her as Margareta, it would be entirely appropriate and polite.

If Margareta is no Princess, what is Radu then, by virtue of his marriage to this born Princess von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, later Princess von Hohenzollern, later Princess of Romania?

I know she is Her Majesty Margareta, Custodian of the Romanian Crown, but in general daily easy-speak Princess Margareta simply is more hands-on for readable communication on this totally non-scientifical, non-official, and free internet forum.

 

[Prinsara]

If Margareta is no Princess, what is Radu then, by virtue of his marriage to this born Princess von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, later Princess von Hohenzollern, later Princess of Romania?

I know she is Her Majesty Margareta, Custodian of the Romanian Crown, but in general daily easy-speak Princess Margareta simply is more hands-on for readable communication on this totally non-scientifical, non-official, and free internet forum.

In that same vein it's entirely appropriate to refer to Maxima as a Princess, since she is a Princess of the Netherlands. And yet if corrected by other members of the forum as well as people who live there, I probably wouldn't do it.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In that same vein it's entirely appropriate to refer to Maxima as a Princess, since she is a Princess of the Netherlands. And yet if corrected by other members of the forum as well as people who live there, I probably wouldn't do it.

Actually she officially is Princess of the Netherlands and is only unofficially "Queen Máxima" by an old-fashioned social custom to address female spouses with their husband's titles. Alike Mrs Doctor or Mrs Mayor in ye olde days (as housewife of a doctor or housewife of a mayor).

If the desire is on this form to be precize, it should be "Princess Máxima" indeed and "Margareta". But if we all agree to call Mrs von Hohenzollern Her Holiness The Popess Margareta, I'm accord too.

 

[Somebody]

Actually she officially is Princess of the Netherlands and is only unofficially "Queen Máxima" by an old-fashioned social custom to address female spouses with their husband's titles. Alike Mrs Doctor or Mrs Mayor in ye olde days (as housewife of a doctor or housewife of a mayor).

If the desire is on this form to be precize, it should be "Princess Máxima" indeed and "Margareta". But if we all agree to call Mrs von Hohenzollern Her Holiness The Popess Margareta, I'm accord too.

This is no longer about Romania but I disagree that Máxima is not officially 'Queen Máxima'. She is not 'Queen Máxima of the Netherlands' (although even the court sometimes makes that mistake) - however, as the wife of our King she is Queen, who besides that official role and title, also holds a title in her own right, which is princess of the Netherlands.

 

[ronald biver]

Queen Maxima

Before Maxima became engaged her title was "miss", Maximaa then became engaged & married a prince, Maxima became a princess then the prince became king, Maxima official title became "queen", wife of the king!

 

[Stefan]

If Margareta is no Princess, what is Radu then, by virtue of his marriage to this born Princess von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, later Princess von Hohenzollern, later Princess of Romania?

I know she is Her Majesty Margareta, Custodian of the Romanian Crown, but in general daily easy-speak Princess Margareta simply is more hands-on for readable communication on this totally non-scientifical, non-official, and free internet forum.

She was always Princess of Romania, as daughter of a King of Romania.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I know she is Her Majesty Margareta, Custodian of the Romanian Crown, but in general daily easy-speak Princess Margareta simply is more hands-on for readable communication on this totally non-scientifical, non-official, and free internet forum.

But "Princess" has ceased to be a part of Margareta's title since her succession to the headship of the family. Referring to "Princess Margareta" in the present day is equivalent to referring to the current British king as "Prince Charles". Isn't the perfectly-correct "Margareta" easier still?

If Margareta is no Princess, what is Radu then, by virtue of his marriage [...]

Quoting from the Fundamental Law of the Royal Family (which, as far as the titles which are in daily usage are concerned, seems to have the recognition of the Romanian state authorities):

https://casamajestatiisale.ro/familia-regala/normele-fundamentale-familia-regala/

1 Şeful actual al Casei Regale a României este:

Majestatea Sa Regina Margareta (jure sanguinis) şi Custode al Coroanei Române (ad personam).

2 Actualul Consort al Şefului Casei Regale a României este:

Alteţa Sa Regală Radu, Principele Consort al României (ad personam).​

Translation:

1 The current Head of the Royal House of Romania is:

Her Majesty Queen Margareta (jure sanguinis) and Custodian of the Crown of Romania (ad personam).

2 The current Consort of the Head of the Royal House of Romania is:

His Royal Highness Radu, Prince Consort of Romania (ad personam).​

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

Before Maxima became engaged her title was "miss", Maximaa then became engaged & married a prince, Maxima became a princess then the prince became king, Maxima official title became "queen", wife of the king!

Not entirely correct. Upon marriage Maxima was created a princess in her own right. But since her husband became king she has been called queen by courtesy only. The way the wife of John Smith is called Mrs. John Smith. Maxima's legal titles are Princess Máxima of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Mrs. van Amsberg.