New title for Princess Anne?

[Somebody]

Timothy Laurence was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II. Can Princess Anne use the title of Lady Laurence?

Why would she want to, she is The Princess Royal. When she was still known as princess Anne, she added her husband's name to her title just like Beatrice and Eugenie do now - as 'HRH The Princess Anne, Mrs. Mark Philips'. However, she dropped the latter part when she became 'HRH The Princess Royal'.

 

[Mbruno]

I'm not so sure about that. There is the king/queen regnant, then there are the peers. And anyone who is not the souvereign or a peer is a commoner. Even the Princess Royal, as this is not a title of the peerage. So if Charles created her the Duchess of Edinburgh eg (which makes more sense than to create it for Edward as she is the eldest child to be able to become the holder of that ducal title when we talk about gender equality), I guess she would still be called HRH The Princess Royal and then The Duchess of Edinburgh after it, but the title of a Royal Duchess in her own right as it's a peerage would outrank the Princess title which only depicts the eldest daughter of a souvereign, but not a peeress. IMHO, of course.

Princess Mary (King George V's daughter) was Countess of Harewood by marriage, but was referred as "Princess Royal and Countess of Harewood", in that order, suggesting "Princess Royal" was considered her most senior title.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Timothy Laurence was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II. Can Princess Anne use the title of Lady Laurence?

She could but as she has herself been knighted the title of Dame would take precedence over the title gained via her husband.

A woman's titles, held in her own right, take precedence over those gained by marriage unless the husband's titles are senior.

 

[Gawin]

Princess Mary (King George V's daughter) was Countess of Harewood by marriage, but was referred as "Princess Royal and Countess of Harewood", in that order, suggesting "Princess Royal" was considered her most senior title.

But she was only a Countess by marriage, not in her own right, so I'm not sure it's comparable to Anne's hypothetical situation.

 

[Sister Morphine]

But she was only a Countess by marriage, not in her own right, so I'm not sure it's comparable to Anne's hypothetical situation.

It would be because "Princess Royal" is the highest title she can possibly have. No hypothetical dukedom, earldom, or otherwise would outrank it. Charles could give her the Dukedom of Ramalama Ding-Dong, and she'd still be "HRH The Princess Royal, Duchess of Ramalama Ding-Dong."

I think she'd be far more honored by something related to the military than a title she'd never use.

 

[Erin9]

I’d love to see Anne rewarded with a title in her own right that she can pass down. I’m just not sure she’d want one.

 

[Gawin]

It would be because "Princess Royal" is the highest title she can possibly have. No hypothetical dukedom, earldom, or otherwise would outrank it. Charles could give her the Dukedom of Ramalama Ding-Dong, and she'd still be "HRH The Princess Royal, Duchess of Ramalama Ding-Dong."

I think she'd be far more honored by something related to the military than a title she'd never use.

But we don't know if it would outrank a peerage title because no Princess Royal has also been a peeress in her own right.

Yes, the style is *currently* the highest honor given a female member of the royal member but that's only because females aren't granted peerage titles. Unlike a peerage title, "Princess Royal" is purely honorary and confers no special privileges or legal status. The Princess Royal is still legally a commoner while her brothers Andrew Duke of York and Edward Earl of Wessex are peers of the realm. That's why the style is granted by Royal Warrant while Letters Patent are required for peerage titles. And once a peerage title is granted, only Parliament can revoke it. King Charles III could remove the "Princess Royal" style from Anne tomorrow if he wanted to.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

As none of the previous Princesses Royal were peeresses in their own right, and there is no other truly comparable situation, I don't think it is possible to know which title would take precedence if a Princess Royal were also granted a peerage.




Interesting. Could you please share the link to those interviews?

Princess Anne was apparently given the option of noble titles for her children:



https://www.nytimes.com/1977/11/16/...irth-to-boy-fifth-in-line-to-the-british.html

"In a departure from tradition, the child will not be given a title. [...] Many Britons were surprised when Buckingham Palace confirmed the decision a few days ago. No reason was given but it was speculated that the young parents, both of whom are known as freewheeling and independent, did not want peerages for themselves or their children."

BBC ON THIS DAY | 15 | 1977: Princess Anne gives birth to Master Phillips

"Both the princess and her husband are said to have rejected an offer from the Queen of titles which would have enabled their children to be born into the peerage."

https://www.nowtolove.co.nz/celebrity/royals/zara-tindall-i-dont-think-of-myself-as-royal-40353

Zara Tindall: "My parents didn't give me or my brother titles, so we've been able to have a slightly more normal upbringing.
"As soon as you have got a title, it is very difficult to shed it. I'm very lucky that both my parents decided not to use the title. We grew up and did all the things that gave us the chance to do."

See the interview from 3.50 minutes on:

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The question is, would Anne want a new title ? I am not that sure…

The Edinburgh-title is reserved for Edward… They can’t back from that now as they have said it on TV and Buckingham Palace sent out a press statement about it when Edward and Sophie married that there was a family agreement between QEII, Philip, Charles and Edward regarding the title…

What i can see on the other hand is that Anne will become the first Princess to be promoted to 5-star rank in all 3 branches of the arned forces in recognition of her (very) long standing support of the military. She currently holds 4-star rank…. That i think Anne would appreciate more than becoming a Duchess or Countess in her own right…

I am not sure the Princess is interested in becoming Admiral of the Fleet, Field Marshal or Marshal of the Royal Air Force (the British equivalent of 5 star rank). But even then, it is a bit of an operetta to create these titles for an elderly woman who has no any military capacity other than having been married to a Army Captain and being married to a Navy Admiral...

 

[Kataryn]

IMHO it is fun to speculate over the reactions Charles will have no on becoming king. Now it is hisright to decide and he can follow his mother's example on doing nothing (apart from granting the title of "Prince of Wales" to William and eventually Edinburgh to Andrew, as was promised. But he could deny Edward that title and he could give her own peerage to Anne and it would show what king Charles III. thinks is best. What absolutely doesn't matter is what you or I think is right apart from the fact that this might influence our speculation and arguments pro and contra. It only matters what Charles will do or don't.

I don't really care where the Edinburgh-title ends up or if it is recreated at all but I love to speculate and think about eventual consequences. IMHO opinion that's what these forums are for. In that case it will be that "Charles gets what Charles want" or better "should want according to his and his advisor's opinion", but the idea that Charles is different from his mother and that he is now the fount of honours fascinates me and I'm glad here is a place for speculation. Just my 2 Cents.

 

[MARG]

Well, since nothing can cap "The Princess Royal" perhaps Tim might get a title as he has been carrying out engagements with his wife and, more significantly, on his own for quite some considerable time. Now him, you could certainly make 'Admiral of the Fleet'.

 

[Hallo girl]

I am not sure the Princess is interested in becoming Admiral of the Fleet, Field Marshal or Marshal of the Royal Air Force (the British equivalent of 5 star rank). But even the, it is a bit of an operetta to create these titles for an elderly woman who has no any military capacity other than having been married to a Army Captain and being married to a Navy Admiral...

Then you do not understand Anne.

 

[Alison H]

I don't expect either Anne or Tim to receive any more titles.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Then you do not understand Anne.

My hope is that the Princess Royal has enough insight and feeling for reality: making her an Admiral of the Fleet, a Field Marshal or a Marshal of the Royal Air Force is a sort of devaluation of that prestigious assignment.

That her late father Philip and her late great uncle Louis held these positions: soit, another generation, another era. And actually they were active military with their own merits (or having had an almost King-like position as Viceroy).

But that is a personal opinion. Now while a devastating war is raging in our very own Continent, parading around with a Marshal bâton (based on what...?) would be bordering ridiculousness to my very humble personal opinion.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I don't expect either Anne or Tim to receive any more titles.

Nor do I ,but I could be wrong!

 

[Hallo girl]

Nor do I ,but I could be wrong!

Actually I agree that she wouldn't receive any further titles other than possibly Counsellor of State. Her mother made her Princess Royal she would never stop using that IMO.

The point I was making that although Anne didn't serve in the military she has great ties to them.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Actually I agree that she wouldn't receive any further titles other than possibly Counsellor of State. Her mother made her Princess Royal she would never stop using that IMO.

The point I was making that although Anne didn't serve in the military she has great ties to them.

If Anne were to made a duchess wouldn't that supersede Princess Royal?

 

[yukari]

Actually I agree that she wouldn't receive any further titles other than possibly Counsellor of State. Her mother made her Princess Royal she would never stop using that IMO.

The point I was making that although Anne didn't serve in the military she has great ties to them.

Other possible title/role: Captain General Royal Marines. It's been rumoured that she'll get it, so maybe Charles will finally grant it to her. It's surely a prestigious title/role and will show her importance in his reign. Plus unlike CoS, there's no need to involve parliament.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Actually I agree that she wouldn't receive any further titles other than possibly Counsellor of State. Her mother made her Princess Royal she would never stop using that IMO.

The point I was making that although Anne didn't serve in the military she has great ties to them.

The Princess Royal already was a Counsellor of State for more than three decades (from 15 August 1971 until 21 June 2003).

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Other possible title/role: Captain General Royal Marines. It's been rumoured that she'll get it, so maybe Charles will finally grant it to her. It's surely a prestigious title/role and will show her importance in his reign. Plus unlike CoS, there's no need to involve parliament.

Now that the Duke of Sussex has laid down his (honorary) military assignments, for me the position of Captain General of the Royal Marines would fit perfectly to the Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Cambridge etc. etc. This because of his more active military involvement than is aunt, the Princess Royal.


But I agree that the honorary position of a Captain-General of the Royal Marines for Anne would be less eh... ridiculous than becoming Admiral of the Fleet, Field Marshal or Marshal of the Air Force: these are the most supreme military ranks available.

 

[Denville]

Then you do not understand Anne.

I think that Anne would certianly not want a title or rank which she had not earned so she's not likely to wish for military ranks when she has never served in the military. And she would not wish for a peerage either.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

And Charlotte's name is perfectly in line with the previous Princesses Royal:

1. Princess Mary
2. Princess Anne
3. Princess Charlotte
4. Princess Victoria
5. Princess Louise
6. Princess Mary
7. Princess Anne
8. Princess Charlotte?

So, after Charlotte (assuming she will be given the title by William at some point) the next one better be a Victoria

The previous Princess Royal Number 6 Princess Mary was legally Princess Victoria Alexandra Alice Mary.

 

[Denville]

Well, since nothing can cap "The Princess Royal" perhaps Tim might get a title as he has been carrying out engagements with his wife and, more significantly, on his own for quite some considerable time. Now him, you could certainly make 'Admiral of the Fleet'.

Certainly not. why is there all this desire for poeple to get honours? Today's trend is correctly to cut back on peerages and the like, not to add to them.

 

[Roslyn]

I think that Anne would certianly not want a title or rank which she had not earned so she's not likely to wish for military ranks when she has never served in the military. And she would not wish for a peerage either.

She has already accepted the ranks of admiral, general, and air-chief-marshal, and she regularly wear military uniform, so the fact she has not served in the military does not seem to bother her so I do not think it would stop her accepting a higher rank if it were available and offered.

As Princess Royal, she holds the highest honour available to a female member of the Royal Family and I suspect she considers that to be as good as it gets and I do not imagine that she would want a peerage. I could be proven wrong, though.

 

[Denville]

That was years ago. Now the trend is for only a very limited number of people to have honours and ranks unless they have earned them

 

[Roslyn]

Princess Anne became a general and air chief marshal on her birthday in 2020, so not so long ago. I'd say she'd be up for another one.

 

[Denville]

oh well in that case.

 

[Mbruno]

But we don't know if it would outrank a peerage title because no Princess Royal has also been a peeress in her own right.

Yes, the style is *currently* the highest honor given a female member of the royal member but that's only because females aren't granted peerage titles. Unlike a peerage title, "Princess Royal" is purely honorary and confers no special privileges or legal status. The Princess Royal is still legally a commoner while her brothers Andrew Duke of York and Edward Earl of Wessex are peers of the realm. That's why the style is granted by Royal Warrant while Letters Patent are required for peerage titles. And once a peerage title is granted, only Parliament can revoke it. King Charles III could remove the "Princess Royal" style from Anne tomorrow if he wanted to.

The United Kingdom has separate orders of precedence for men and women. The female order of precedence, I believe, does not distinguish peeresses in their own right and wives of peers. Although wives of peers are commoners, they take their precedence by what peerage their husband's title belongs to (England, Scotland, Great Britain, Ireland, or the United Kingdom) and, within each peerage, by the date of creation of the said title.

 

[Gawin]

The United Kingdom has separate orders of precedence for men and women. The female order of precedence, I believe, does not distinguish peeresses in their own right and wives of peers. Although wives of peers are commoners, they take their precedence by what peerage their husband's title belongs to (England, Scotland, Great Britain, Ireland, or the United Kingdom) and, within each peerage, by the date of creation of the said title.

My point is that "Princess Royal" is not necessarily the highest title Anne can have. It's simply the highest title she was traditionally allowed to have as a female. If she had been a born male not female she wouldn't have been created Prince Royal. Why not? Because she would have been given a peerage title instead, rendering "Prince Royal" completely unnecessary. Sons get peerages, daughters get nothing except the eldest who gets the "Princess Royal" style. So we really have no idea if "Princess Royal" would supersede a peerage title in her own right. It's never happened.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Geeez we have absolutely no idea wether this is even on the table or if it is (as i suspect) other people who wants Anne to become a Duchess just because of showing female equality…

Yet we are here shouting and pointing fingers at each other, and taking down each others freely expressed opinions as if we have comitted a crime by even expressing them !

Can’t we at least wait with the next domestic war here until the late Queen has been laid to rest ?