Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich (1891-1942)

[Vasillisos Markos]

My dear Russo,

Felix sounds like he belongs in my family -- the stories get better with each re-telling! After a while, you cannot even recognize the tale.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I read an on-line biography of Grand Duke Dmitri and it stated that Dmitri recognized Cyril's claim to the throne. But the bio also stated that several monarchical organizations recognize Dmitri's grandson, Prince Pavlo Dmitrovich Romanov as the heir to the Russian Throne. Is this because the throne can only go to a male and the claim of Cyril's descendants fails because the current head of Cyril's line is a woman? Does anyone know of this prince, Pavlo Dmitrovich?

 

[MAfan]

Some believe that Kirill and his siblings and their descendants had/have no rights to the throne because at the time of Kirill's burth his mother Marie Pavlovna still was Lutheran and not Orthodox.
Therefore after the abdication and eventually the death of (Tsar) Michael Alexandrovic in 1917-18, being the children of Grand Duke Wladimir ineligible to the throne because of their mother's faith, Dmitri Pavlovich became de iure Tsar.
Being the Emperor, he didn't need anyone's permission to marry, so his marriage to Audrey Emery was dynastic, and at his death in 1942 his only son Paul (Ilinsky) succeeded him as Tsar, and at Paul's death in 2004 he was succeeded by his son Dmitri, born in 1959.

But actually GD Wladimir's children were always recognized as full dynasts, Kirill's marriage was eventually recognized as legal and dynastic in 1910, Dmitri recognized him as Head of the Imperial Family and Dmitri's marriage was considered as morganatic by Kirill; and Dmitri's son Paul never considered the idea of claiming anything in Russia.

 

[Russophile]

I read an on-line biography of Grand Duke Dmitri and it stated that Dmitri recognized Cyril's claim to the throne. But the bio also stated that several monarchical organizations recognize Dmitri's grandson, Prince Pavlo Dmitrovich Romanov as the heir to the Russian Throne. Is this because the throne can only go to a male and the claim of Cyril's descendants fails because the current head of Cyril's line is a woman? Does anyone know of this prince, Pavlo Dmitrovich?

Which one?? I had thought it was rather a "you scratch my back, i'll scratch yours" sort of thing with GD Dmitry and Kyril as Dmitry "recognized" him, and Kyril styled Audrey Emery as Princess Illinskoe.
Do the descendants of GD Dmitry still live in Florida?

 

[MAfan]

Good thought, Russo; actually it happened exactly what you wrote, one accepted the other as Head of the Imperial Family and the other created the one's wife Princess. I don't know if they had any sort of agreement, or maybe the two things happened separately...who knows?

Dmitri's descendants are living in the USA; almost all of Paul (Dmitri's son) grandchildren were born in Cincinnati, Ohio, and three of his four children also married there; I wonder if they're living there too.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I think one, the aforementioned Paul, lives in Europe but MAfan is correct, the children were born in Cincinnati. Dmitri's son was an Illynsky and he rejected any claim to the throne and was elected Mayor of Palm Beach. I really don't remember where I read about the son living in Europe.

 

[Russophile]

I think one, the aforementioned Paul, lives in Europe but MAfan is correct, the children were born in Cincinnati. Dmitri's son was an Illynsky and he rejected any claim to the throne and was elected Mayor of Palm Beach. I really don't remember where I read about the son living in Europe.

Interesting. Do any of them stylize themselves as Prince or Princess of Russia? They have that right don't they?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Russo dear,

Perhaps this answers your question:

He [Paul, Grand Duke Dmitri's son] held British and U.S. citizenship.
At the death of Grand Duke Vladimir of Russia in 1992, Paul Ilyinsky succeeded as the Head of the House of Holstein-Gottorp (de jure Duke of Holstein-Gottorp [source: Theroff]), which in accordance with the 1604 Norrköping Succession Pact holds its rights to the Swedish throne as well as to the throne of the Grand Duchy of Finland (there reiterated for example in the 1772 Constitution and the 1809 Oaths of Fealty), inherited through his ancestress Hedvig Sophia of Sweden, duchess of Holstein-Gottorp, the eldest sister of the childless Charles XII of Sweden.

Sources: Paul Theroff, Online Gotha

• Guy Stair sainty, the Russian imperial succession
• 1772 constitution (Instrument of Government of the Grand Duchy of Finland)

[edit] Issue

This section does not cite any references or sources.
Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (November 2006)
Paul Ilyinsky was married first, in Honolulu, Hawaii, on 29 July 1949, to Mary Evelyn Prince (born 1925); the marriage was annulled in 1951. They had no children.

From his second marriage with Angelica Philippa Kauffmann (born Paris 21 June 1932 or 23 March 1932), whom Paul married in Palm Beach, Florida on 1 October 1952, he had four children. His issue is as follows:

• Prince Dimitri Romanovsky-Ilyinsky, titular Duke of Holstein-Gottorp (born Palm Beach 1 May 1954) who married in New Haven, Connecticut, 22 September 1979, Martha Murray McDowell (born New Haven, Connecticut 15 Jun 1952) and has three daughters:[5]
  • Princess Catherine Adair Romanovsky-Ilyinsky (born Cincinnati, Ohio 4 August 1981)
  • Princess Victoria Bayard Romanovsky-Ilyinsky (born Cincinnati, Ohio 23 November 1984)
  • Princess Lela McDowell Romanovsky-Ilyinsky (born Cincinnati, Ohio 26 August 1986)

• Princess Paula Maria Romanovsky-Ilyinsky (born Palm Beach, Florida 18 May 1956), married in Cincinnati, Ohio, 31 May 1980, Mark Comisar (born Cincinnati, Ohio 17 June 1953), and had two children, the elder of whom survives:
  • Alexander Lee Comisar (born Cincinnati 6 April 1983)
  • Makena Anna Comisar (Cincinnati 20 Nov 1984-killed in a car accident in which she was the driver, Clermont County, Ohio 1 August 2002)

• Princess Anna Romanovsky-Ilyinsky (born Palm Beach 4 September 1959); married firstly in Henniker, New Hampshire, 9 May 1980, (divorced 1990) Robin de Young (born Cambridge, Massachusetts, 25 December 1952); married secondly in Cincinnati, Ohio, 18 December 1992, David Wise Glossinger (born Dayton, Ohio 11 July 1953). Has four children, two of each marriage:
  • Audrey Emery de Young (born Cincinnati 1 April 1983)
  • Heather Morrison de Young (born Cincinnati 25 October 1985)
  • Sophia Wise Glossinger (born Cincinnati 5 May 1993)
  • Paul Glossinger (born Cincinnati 19 Sep 1994)

• Prince Michael Romanovsky-Ilyinsky (born Palm Beach 3 Nov 1959); married firstly in Cincinnati, 7 May 1985, (divorced 1986) Marcia Marie Lowe; married secondly 2 Nov 1989 (divorced 1995) Paula Gay Maier; thirdly 1999 (divorced 2000) Lisa Marie Schiesler (born 17 May 1973). Has one daughter, born of second marriage:
  • Princess Alexis Taylor Romanoff-Ilyinsky (born 21 March 1994)

I found this on Wikipedia so take it for what it is worth as far as being accurate. It appears that Paul had no issue from his firsts marriage. And there does not appear to be any Prince Paul among the grandchildren, so I don't know who is the Pavlo referenced above as the pretender to the throne.

 

[MAfan]

And there does not appear to be any Prince Paul among the grandchildren, so I don't know who is the Pavlo referenced above as the pretender to the throne.

I can only guess that it was a mistake, they wrote grandson instead of son; or perhaps they confused Dmitri Pavlovic (Ilynsky) with Pavlo Dmitrievic; actually it isn't difficult to commit a mistake, since we have two Paul (the Grand-Duke, GD Dmitri's father, and the late Prince Ilynskyi) and two Dmitri (the Grand-Duke and his grandson Ilynskyi) in the same family.

 

[Russophile]

I can only guess that it was a mistake, they wrote grandson instead of son; or perhaps they confused Dmitri Pavlovic (Ilynsky) with Pavlo Dmitrievic; actually it isn't difficult to commit a mistake, since we have two Paul (the Grand-Duke, GD Dmitri's father, and the late Prince Ilynskyi) and two Dmitri (the Grand-Duke and his grandson Ilynskyi) in the same family.

Don't forget they threw Audrey Emery in the mix as well!


Thanks VM!!

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I read a biographical essay about Dmitri's sister, Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna. It said that she never loved being around children and that the only person she truly loved (but not in a romantic sense) was Dmitri. So when she died, her son arranged to have both brother and sister interred on the grounds of Schloss Mainau. This place is gorgeous and here is a link showing some photographs.
schloss mainau - Google Search

From those who read about Dmitri and Marie, is there any reason given for her distaste for children?

 

[Russophile]

From those who read about Dmitri and Marie, is there any reason given for her distaste for children?

Possibly the way Serge and Ella raised them??
So it was rather good her ex husband took the child Lennart and that the second one died? (Horrible to say, however she said she didn't like children. . .)

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Possibly the way Serge and Ella raised them??
So it was rather good her ex husband took the child Lennart and that the second one died? (Horrible to say, however she said she didn't like children. . .)

Russo dear,

You may be right. The effects of child rearing by the foster parents, coupled with the death of Marie's mother and the absence of her father, might have contributed to an abhorrence for children.

On the other hand, I was reading a biography of Paul I, who was taken away from his mother and raised by Tsarina Elizabeth Petrovna, but essentially abandoned and neglected by both women. It appears that when Paul married and had children, his children remembered him as being tender and nuturing, at least the ones who were not raised by Catherine the Great. Paul is an example of one who overcame a troubled childhood.

 

[Russophile]

Paul is an example of one who overcame a troubled childhood.

Uh. .. . okay

(Russo remembers Paul as being a despot and killed by his own troops. . .)

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Russo dear,

I am not advocating for Paul's abilities as Tsar -- I was pointing out Paul's relationship with his children as an example of one who was neglected in his youth but still managed to have a decent relationship with his children. We were discussing Grand Duchess Marie's dislike of children, were we not?

Seriously, there were few Romanov who were not despots. Paul just happened to go too far and was killed for his efforts.

 

[Russophile]

You nkow, I haven't read much on the relationship he had with his children. However, I did read his second marriage was quite happy.

 

[Grandduchess24]

Was he really the murderer if rasputin?
Was was he a homosexual ?
Apparently in later life he had a romance with coco Chanel and was once engaged to grand duchess Olga nikolaievna but what was OTMAA's relationship with dmitri because apparently OTM and A had a crush in him.

 

[Russophile]

Was he really the murderer if rasputin? .

He didn't literally pull the trigger however he was a co-conspirator. See Yusoppov's Lost Splendor for his eyewitness account.

Was was he a homosexual ?

Nothing I've read comes out and actually SAYS that. He certainly hung out with Felix who was (though Felix obviously did his duty by his wife hence the child, Princess Irina.) and there were many rumors about it which would lead one to think he was bi-sexual. Because of these rumors the Empress did not look kindly upon him.

Apparently in later life he had a romance with coco Chanel

This is true. Coco was also seeing Stravinski who threatened to leave his wife for her fueld by the gossipy Jose Maria Sert ( aka Jo-jo). GDDmitri's sister Marie also worked for Chanel at one time.

and was once engaged to grand duchess Olga nikolaievna but what was OTMAA's relationship with dmitri because apparently OTM and A had a crush in him.

I believe there were talks between the branches of the family and yes, the girls did have a crush on him, however he had a penchant for married women. See the Crawfords: Michael and Natasha. Dmitri was head over heels for GDMichael's wife. They called him "Lily of the valley."

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Was he really the murderer if rasputin?
Was was he a homosexual ?
Apparently in later life he had a romance with coco Chanel and was once engaged to grand duchess Olga nikolaievna but what was OTMAA's relationship with dmitri because apparently OTM and A had a crush in him.

I believe the entire royal family was very fond of Dmitri and the Tsar and Tsarina often treated him like a son; thus, they were very disappointed, not to say outraged, in his involvement with the death of Rasputin. Consequently, Dmitri was banished from Russia, which in the end saved his life because he was absent when the Revolution started.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Anyone know of Dmitri's relationship with Queen Marie of Romania? I saw a you tube clip on a thread devoted to her. The clip was scenes from Marie's funeral and it shows Dmitri in attendance. I assume they were related through her mother but wondered if they had a special friendship.

 

[Cory]

Dimitri knew Missy but his sister was closer to the Romanian Queen.

 

[Russophile]

Dimitri knew Missy but his sister was closer to the Romanian Queen.

Can you cite references please? I have GD Marie's book Education of a Princess and nothing is mentioned of that. In "Born to Rule" it mentions nothing of their relationship either. I read Queen Marie's auto biography and there is no mention of GD Dmitry or Marie in it.
Thanks!

 

[Cory]

I do not remember where I read about it.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I do not remember where I read about it.

My dear Cory,

Forgive me if I am wrong but could you possibly be confusing Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna with Grand Duchess Marie Kirilnovna, the daughter of Queen Marie's sister, Victoria Melita, who divorced her first husband and then married Grand Duke Cyril? In the link dear Russo provided me, I read an excerpt from a magazine in which Queen Marie of Romania was the subject. In the story, it mentions that her niece Marie, also known as Masha, was visiting her at Sinaia. Could this be the Marie who was close to Queen Marie?

 

[Cory]

I was speaking about Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna.

 

[Russophile]

I was speaking about Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna.

Like VM siad, they both were known as Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna. Miechen was known as The Elder and Marie was known as The Younger.


Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Miechen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchess_Maria_Pavlovna_of_Russia_(1890-1958)
Dmitry's sister.

 

[Cory]

Missy knew both of them.

 

[Warren]

Anyone know of Dmitri's relationship with Queen Marie of Romania?.

There is just the one mention of GD Dimitri in Hanna Pakula's "The Last Romantic" [paperback page 311]. It relates to Grand Duke Kirill's proclamation of himself as "Guardian of the Throne" and Dimitri is named by Pakula as a possible claimant in the eyes of some Russian emigres. That's it.

As to Dimitri's sister, Grand Duchess Marie [Maria Pavlova the Younger], she gets a few mentions but most relate to her observations of Queen Marie rather than the other way round. However, "To her credit [Queen] Marie did not forget less fortunate relatives in her moment of glory. She sent Joe Boyle into Russia twice to rescue the surviving Romanovs, and in the case of Grand Duchess Marie, the Queen offered her and her husband [Prince Poutiatine] a home in Romania." [p271]

When Queen Marie was invited to visit Paris in 1919 she requested that GD Marie accompany her, and thence to England. When the British government made it known that she [GD Marie] would not be welcome at Court, the Romanian government denied the Queen's request. "Marie broke down in tears of anger, telling Barbo Stirbey that even "if all the world meant to behave like selfish beasts," she would never deny her exiled Russian relatives; "it is not in my nature to behave shabbily or like a coward. I simply cannot & will not do so." [p271]

In 1924 Ferdinand and Marie visited Paris. While there "The Queen took time from parades and state luncheons to visit the House of Chanel with her former houseguest, the young Russian Grand Duchess Marie." [p328]

Of relevance to nothing...
Ferdinand and Marie continued on to England. [p329:] "Until this visit, Marie had always considered Queen Mary stiff in personality and dress, but was now impressed with her 'magnificent and monumental' style." Quite.

 

[Russophile]

In 1924 Ferdinand and Marie visited Paris. While there "The Queen took time from parades and state luncheons to visit the House of Chanel with her former houseguest, the young Russian Grand Duchess Marie." [p328]

Warren was this when Chanel went thorugh her Russian phase? I remember Marie the younger worked for her for a time. Then, according to Chanel, Marie wanted more money and *poof* Chanel was out of her Russian phase and onto something else.

 

[Warren]

Queen Marie's Paris visit was in April 1924.
Coco Chanel's fashion phases are outside my ambit. Lady Gaga however...