German Restoration?

[MBGGfvB]

Why not Regional?

Regional monarchies would be fine with me (Wittelsbach, Wettins, Hohenzollern, Hannoverian, Hessian, etc.). I really don't see where any would agree on a national monarch today. That has seemed to be the history of the German states until the 1800s anyway...

 

[Kai29]

A discussion about restoration of the monarchy in germany is pure nonsens. May be we go into that when we can elect our Head of State (Bundespräsident) by our selves and not through the Bundesversammlung.

 

[RoyalistRiley]

Regional monarchies would be fine with me (Wittelsbach, Wettins, Hohenzollern, Hannoverian, Hessian, etc.). I really don't see where any would agree on a national monarch today. That has seemed to be the history of the German states until the 1800s anyway...

Maybe the national monarch could rotate between the regions, like Malaysia.

 

[RJ TAYLER]

A capital suggestion, also Malaysia has a couple of regional monarchies that are rotational in themselves. So those 'dynasties without' a modern state to corespond to could also have a four or five year turn. Besides it works in the UAE as well.

 

[Warren]

Malaysia has NINE Sultans. Every five years one of them is elected Yang di-Pertuan Agong (effectively 'King of Malaysia'), usually but not always in rotation.
The UAE is a federation of seven emirates. The President of the UAE is the Ruler of Abu Dhabi and the Vice President is the Ruler of Dubai. There is no rotation.

 

[Tilia C.]

Maybe the national monarch could rotate between the regions, like Malaysia.

The only time we are ever likely to hear this suggestion from German media would certainly be on 1st April Neither the politicians nor the population in Germany want the monarchy back, in whatever form.

 

[Australian]

Monarchies are not coming back, the only way monarchies are going is down. There is no chance.

 

[fearghas]

Monarchies are not coming back, the only way monarchies are going is down. There is no chance.

Im SO glad you can predict the future

 

[RJ TAYLER]

Not coming back? In my lifetime I've seen restorations in Spain and Cambodia (with a change of Monarch there to boot). So I don't rule anything out. Case in point Republican Rome => Imperial Rome in antiquity.

 

[august w]

Wurttemberg,

 

[rob2008]

Niedersachsen should restore the Windsors as King of Hannover. The Ernst Augusts were never any good at it.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I wonder if a restoration would be more palatable if the term for the sovereign was King rather than Emperor. Calling someone an Emperor implies that there's an Empire, and perhaps the Germans don't want to resurrect memories of German empire-building. The last Emperor among the Windsors was George VI, and I don't think that the loss of the title Emperor/Empress has damaged the prestige of the House of Windsor.

 

[lucien]

A Restauration in Germany?Maybe in a Disneyland sort of setting,but other then that,no,it won't happen.Our neighbours to the East are fond of watching footage and having Royalty around,foreign Royalty that is,it is treated with the utmost respect,especially the Swedish and Dutch Royal Families have an enormous goodwill.But to transform into a Monarchy again is soo against the will of the vast majority of Germans that it will never happen.It's a total non issue there.The former ruling families of Germany enjoy respect,some more then others,one of the best respected being the Bavarian House of Wittelsbach and the Württembergs.

 

[Tilia C.]

Niedersachsen should restore the Windsors as King of Hannover. The Ernst Augusts were never any good at it.

????????Windsor?????????? Why would people in Niedersachsen want an English king? We (I am from Niedersachsen) don't even want a German king! Even if EA of Hanover were a more respected person, we wouldn’t want a king. Besides Niedersachsen is not at all the same territory as the former kingdom of Hannover. People in large parts of Niedersachsen have no ties at all with the Hanovers. AND constitution wise there is no way that one Bundesland could change into a kingdom again. To try to do that would completely disrupt the German society. No thanks! In Germany we have finally reached unity (ok, we are still struggling with making east and west grow together, but it’s getting on), we have a stable, democratic state, we have a peaceful coextence with our neighbours and see ourselves as part of the European "family". There clearly is no way that the German people want to change our form of state.

 

[Stefan]

Wurttemberg,

They you would have first to part the country Baden-Württemberg again.

 

[David V]

This is far-fetched and so, but still interesting discussion even if there are zero chances of such a thing ever happening.

Anyway, the German Empire when formed in 1871 was a federal state, much like the US, Canada and Australia are. And today's Federal Republic of Germany maintains the formula of a federal state, in which case the nation is composed of states with inherent jurisdiction and the federal government's powers are only those that the states have given to them.

There is a line of thought among some that the deposition of German and Austrian monarchies in 1918 was not a good thing, that the perceived vacuum left the door open to totalitarianism. However, Kaiser Wilhelm III was very much the culprit in this war, so the loss of the throne was no surprise. Perhaps there is certain merit in this argument, but what there are a few things that are certain:

- many in Hanover never accepted the loss of Hanover's independence in 1866. From then until WWII, there was a political movement with Reichstag representation dedicated to restoring the state of Hanover.

- similarly, in Bavaria, there was and to a degree still is a separatist movement. Separatism and monarchism were fairly strong sentiments in Bavaria during the Weimar Republic. Bavarians always saw themselves differently from the rest of Germany, culturally they have many things in common with Austria. Austrians and Bavarians can be said to form an ethnic subgroup, while Alemannic people (i.e. German-speaking Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Voralberg, Swabia and Baden-Württemberg) form another.

- there is no doubt that in a few German states, and most notably Bavaria, many and perhaps a majority of people have never accepted the their royal houses being deposed. Certainly the Wittelsbachs are still highly respected in Bavaria, and the Württembergs seem to be as well.

The influence of Germany's aristocratic class, despite the derecognition of any and all titles, remained strong long after, and that includes having at least one President of the Federal Republic- namely Richard von Weiszäcker, who was also President at the time of reunification.

 

[Harold]

However, Kaiser Wilhelm III was very much the culprit in this war, so the loss of the throne was no surprise.

I am not an expert on WW1 or Wilhelm II, but I think this statement is incorrect or at least debatable. From what I've read, Wilhelm tried to stop the war but was pushed on by his ministers.

 

[David V]

I am not an expert on WW1 or Wilhelm II, but I think this statement is incorrect or at least debatable. From what I've read, Wilhelm tried to stop the war but was pushed on by his ministers.

I should have said "considered to be a culprit".

But the differences in attitudes in Germany post-WWI make an interesting case study. There was not a large "monarchist movement" as such (like in France, where you had three distinct such movements who remain politically influential today) but in places like Hanover and Bavaria, there was a definite monarchist current- which in turn was as much an anti-Prussian thing (since Prussia was the dominant state of pre-WWII Germany) as a monarchist one. Remember that in 1866, Hanover, Nassau and the Free City of Frankfurt had all been absorbed into Prussia- the House of Nassau later took the throne of Luxembourg.

The German Empire was a federation of states whose political systems varied. On a federal level, there was universal male suffrage for the Reichstag- rare at the time, while in the later 19th century the foundations for the modern welfare state were also being laid. The states were either constitutional monarchies (suffrage varied between states), absolute monarchies, and the free cities of Hamburg, Bremen and Lübeck were republics. So the Reich was a true federation like the United States, but the constituent states actually had varying forms of government.

 

[pgm1952]

A restoration of the German monarchy would have to be considerably watered down from the grand, autocratic Imperial past remembered today by historians and those who know anything about German history. And even so, would it be for the kingdom of Prussia or the united Germany of today? This sounds silly but there may be some in Hesse- Kassal or Schleswig- Holstein, maybe, who would like to see those once small grand duchies rise to the level of kingship held by the Hohenzollerns, no matter how long ago it was.

And what would the role of the royal family be in the modern Germany? Many monarchies try to borrow a little from the past to make themselves seem more appealing, with the monarchy as a theoretically never- ending link to the past. How could you celebrate a past that many historians and scholars have told us was corrupt, imperialistic, and autocratic? There are great things about Germany and bad things, and the monarchy in Germany saw some very bad times (not as horrible as the Nazis though).

 

[Tiberivs]

Since the leadership of the federal republic worked long and hard to present the post-WWII German state as the antithesis to the Germany of 1871-1945, "the other Germany", a restoration looks impossible.

 

[emalia2011]

pretenders

Could some clarifacation be provided as to who the pretenders are?

 

[Kataryn]

Normally the "pretenders" are the Heads of the former ruling families of Germany. The thing is: no one of them is interested. Here are some:

Bavaria: Duke Franz
Prussia: Prince Georg Friedrich
Saxony: The Margrave of Meissen
Wuerttemberg: The Duke of Wuerttemberg
Baden: The Margrave of Baden

etc.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

Given the fractured state of German history, I can be confident in saying that there will be no restoration in Germany..

However if such a thing were to occur, I think the family of German Emperor would have the highest claim to the monarchy..

Kaiser Wilhelm II's heir is Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia (born 1939). He is the son of Prince Ludwig Ferdinand of Prussia and Grand Duchess Kira Kyrillovna of Russia.

Prince Ludwig Ferdinand became the pretender to the German monarchy after his elder brother, Crown Prince Wilhelm, renounced his succession rights and the rights of his (future) children in 1933.

The Crown Prince's unequal marriage was recognized as dynastic in 1940, but he had two daughters and no male heir, so his claim to the throne would have passed to his younger brother Ludwig anyway.

The current pretender's (Prince Friedrich Wihelm) heir, is his son Prince Philip Kyrill of Prussia (born 1968), who has two sons of his own - Prince Paul Wilhelm of Prussia (born 1995) and Prince Timotheus Friedrich of Prussia (born 2005).

 

[fearghas]

Actually teh Kaisers heir is Prince Georg Friedrich, Friedrich Wilhelm had to give up his position because of his unequal marriage

 

[Kataryn]

You'll never get Bavarian monarchists to agree to a Prussian as our souverain. According to the current consitution Bavaria could opt out of Germany if the majority wanted it. As Bavaria is the federal state with the greatest payment for Germany and Germany makes the greatest payment to the EU you could say that Bavaria could easily manage without either Germany or the EU. But of course nobody wants that or would risk that! Thus: no restoration in Germany and feinately no Prussian as our king!

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

Mein Mann hat immer gesagt dass.. Bayern ist ein Land in einem Land..

Actually teh Kaisers heir is Prince Georg Friedrich, Friedrich Wilhelm had to give up his position because of his unequal marriage

Kaiser Wilhelm's heir to the House of Hohenzollern is Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia.. in this you are correct.

However, since we are talking about the restoration of a German monarch, it is unlikely that the rules of the House of Hohenzollern would be followed when deciding whose head to place the crown upon.. there are just too many "house rules" within the German nobility to follow them all..

My post was strictly following the male line descent of the Kaiser.

 

[fearghas]

Prince GF is the one 'recognised', in so much as they recognise any royal claiments, be the german govy. that is he is the one that the german chancellor deals with when anything to do with the Hohemzollerns.

 

[Nice Nofret]

*rofl* of course a lot of Germans are big fans of the Royalties around the world - that doesn't mean that we chuse to be a monarchie.

The thought is just tooo funny *rofl* - no way for restauration in the world as we know it. ... but who knows how the world changes .. with upcoming war's everything might change.

 

[lucien]

A restauration of the Monarchy in Germany is a Utopia sort of thing,only a few believe or wish for that to happen.A few as in a few 10.000's in a population of over 70 million.That is couleur locale,and nothing more then that.And really,Prince Georg Friedrich has the last say in it,alltho prepared and raised to take the Reigns when asked by the majority.

At present it is nothing more then schwärmerisch dreaming and old sentiments often by people who don't have a clue at all on the workings and the very concept of a Monarchy in this day and age only wishing to restore a simular Monarchy as was the case under willy.

Germans do have a weak spot for Monarchies elsewhere,especially the Dutch is popular,but it doesnt go any further then that at all.

 

[SchwarzerAdler]

To my mind the main problem is the media and the „education“ of the German people after world war II.
Monarchy in general and especially the German Empire under Wilhelm II. is still reported in a very biased way. Although I do not know any representative survey this leads to prejudices which are felt to be true knowledge by the majority of the people. Just to name the most popular:
- Monarchy belongs to the past and is anti-democratic
- Royals and members of nobility are useless, rich, not-working people
- Monarchy is too expensive and despotic
- Wilhelm II. started world war I. because he wanted to rule the world
Although nothing is true, these prejudices have been implanted so deeply inside the German brains.
Most people (and also in this forum) do not know the difference between an absolute and a constitutional monarchy and the special form of the latter, the parliamentarian monarchy.
Most people would never stand the working schedule of e.g. HM Queen Elizabeth II. even for one month. Most people cannot imagine that the majority of the German nobility is not unimaginably rich but has to struggle hard to maintain their heritage.
So the idea of monarchy is rejected due to lack of knowledge and pure ignorance, partly by the same people who know the price of any thing but not its value. I think it is also this fact that nobility is rejected because it is the only thing (besides health) that you cannot buy.
And we should remind everyone that nobility and monarchy are no natural allies of today’s political conservatives. Monarchy and nobility do not match with the kind of economic system which rules the world today. And this is a mighty enemy, which owns the media. In their interest Monarchy and nobility is only useful to sell (yellow) press. To deal with the real value of Monarchy is not in their interest, so people are kept dumb.

Alex R.