Talaith Aberffraw - the Royal House of Gwynedd and Wales

[James Frankcom]

Following some recent research it has become apparent that these is a native Welsh pretender to the long dormant throne of Wales.

Welsh royalty is quite complex for a number of reasons; there has not been an acknowledged Welsh prince of king - under English law - since the Statute of Rhuddlan abolished native Welsh royal title in 1284; there has not been a serious Welsh claimant since Owain Glyndwr in 1400; Welsh succession laws are different to English succession laws, and basically follow the Salic principles; there were a number of small, competing realms in medieval Wales.

To get a full understanding there now needs to be a bit of a history lesson...

In 410AD the Romans left Britain. In their stead were a range of Romano-British territories ruled by kings. The Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain in c.450AD and drove the Britons - who spoke Welsh - into the mountains of the west and it is here that the character of the Welsh nation developed. The two most important kingdoms in Wales were Gwynedd and Powys. The House of Gwynedd claimed descent from a Cumbrian warlord called Cunedda Wledig who drove the Irish from Wales in the late 5th Century. The House of Powys claimed descent from the marriage of High King Vortigern of Britain and Princess Severa, the daughter of Emperor Magnus Maximus (a Roman usurper in the 4th Century known to the Welsh as Macsen Wledig).

In 825AD the House of Cunedda died out and the throne was awarded to Merfyn Frych who claimed descent from Llywarch Hen, a king of Northern Britain). Llywarch Hen claimed descent from High King Beli Mawr - a legendary figure who existed before the Romans came to Britain in 43AD.

Merfyn Frych reigned from 825-844AD. His son, Rhodri Mawr (Roderic the Great) married the daughter of the king of Powys - Princess Nest - and then kindly deposed her father. After securing Powys he went on to conquer the south of Wales and was finally acknowledged as "king of the Britons". When Rhodri died his realm was split between his sons; his eldest Anarawd ap Rhodri ruled as King of Gwynedd, his other sons taking Powys and Deheubarth (south Wales). It is important to note, that from this stage the King of Gwynedd was acknowledged as overlord by the other kings who paid an annual tribute.

The House of Aberffraw - the kings of Gwynedd - continued in the male line (with a few interruptions) down to the time of Owain ap Gruffudd (ruled 1137-1170). King Owain ap Gruffudd chose to abandon the style "king" during his reign, preferring the title "Prince of Aberffraw" - which deferred to the king of England but reminded the other princes in Wales that he was still their senior. Eventually, Owain's great-great grandson, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (ruled 1246-1282) came to the throne.

Llywelyn ap Gruffudd is known to most of us as "Llywelyn the Last". After he was killed in battle in 1282 his kingdom, Gwynedd, was abolished as were the other realms of Wales. Llywellyn only had an infant daughter so his brother, Dafydd ap Gruffudd, briefly succeeded him (1282-1283). However, he was soon captured and executed by order of King Edward I of England of Braveheart fame. The two sons of Dafydd - Llywelyn ap Dafydd and Owain ap Dafydd - were put in prison where they died (in 1288 and 1325 respectively).

The next person to contest the throne of Wales was a man called Owain ap Tomas ap Rhodri, the great nephew of Llywelyn the Last, who claimed the title in 1378. However, he was soon assassinated. After him, Owain Glyndwr - distantly related - made a claim between 1400 and c.1415. He died in obscurity and his children were murdered. After this there was a series of purges and many Welshmen with royal blood were massacred.

And that seemed to be the end of it. However, in 1611 a man called Sir John Wynn proved his descent from Owain ap Gruffudd and as such was the de jure King or Prince of Gwynedd. His descendants continued in the male line until 1719.

This is where the research comes in. Among the ancestors of Sir John Wynn were several brothers, and by following the descendants of the younger brother (not John Wynn's ancestor) a line begins that became known as the Anwyl Family.

This family survive in the male line to this day. The current head of the family is Evan Vaughan Anwyl of Tywyn. He is listed in Burke's Peerage. More to the point, he, his son and two cousins are the only people who can prove a direct male line ancestry to any reigning Welsh prince. Other people who had this distinction all expired in the male line in the 18th Century. Under native Welsh Law the crown can only pass in the male line, and it is only under native law that any native title can be considered. It should be noted that neither Evan Vaughan Anwyl nor his son, Dafydd, make any public claim to royal title.

A fully referenced description of the Anwyl family pedigree is explained here;

Anwyl of Tywyn Family - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[James Frankcom]

For those confused about the "Prince of Wales" aka Prince Charles, this English creation was established in 1301 for the eldest son of the English sovereign and has no relation to native Welsh royal title.

 

[Keystone]

Hello James! Good to see you on the site! (Though apparently I have only recently come across your post here). You may remember me from our collaberations on Wiki. You know you and I are not the only ones that are interested in a restored Welsh royal family!

Anywhose, inspired by the recent wedding of Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden and the expected announcement from Buckingham Palace regarding William of Cornwall’s nuptials, I wrote this fictitious newspaper story to explore how a Welsh royal wedding might play out from a sort of future perspective. Other direct sources of inspiration include influential Plaid Cymru member Dr. D.J. Davies article “Wales Must Have a King” which appears in his book “Towards Welsh Freedom,” and from Sion Jobbins who wrote the article “Why not a Welsh royal family” which appeared in Cambria Magazine



Princess of Wales marries football star
June 21st, 2030
By Kurt Davies, Associated Press



CARDIFF, WALES- In a storybook wedding, Anghared, a Princess of Wales, married football celebrity Owen Rhys Williams in an afternoon ceremony held at Llandaff Cathedral here today, marking the end of a public week-long celebration of the country’s first royal wedding since the restoration of the monarchy in 2018.

The Princess and Prince of Gwynedd emerged from Llandaff Cathedral under an arc of crossed swords held by the Royal Welsh 1st Battalion, and stepped onto a gold-trimmed black horse-drawn landau carriage and road through the town to cheers of thousands of well-wishers. The couple’s progress through the crowded city streets was preceded by the Royal Welsh 2nd Battalion on horseback. The Royal Welsh 3rd Battalion’s Regimental Band greeted the couple as they arrived at the Villa Cardiff. The newlyweds disembarked the carriage and entered the palace at the Clock Tower to the chimes of the tower‘s bells, remerging twenty minutes later at the South Portico on the Boulevard de Nantes to wave to the roaring crowd. The king and queen arrived shortly thereafter and joined the newlyweds at the portico, waving to the crowd, before returning into the palace.

The king and queen are scheduled to host an evening banquet in the Assembly Room of the palace later in the evening.

Anghared, 33, is the eldest child of King Dafydd IV of Wales and Queen Elen, and was named ‘Princess of Gwynedd’ as her father’s heir on her 18th birthday. She has three siblings, Princess Cristen, Prince Gruffydd, and Princess Heledd.

Williams, 35, is a professional football player and was named the ‘2026 FIFA World Player of the Year’. Williams is credited with raising the profile of football in Wales. The couple met during the 2026 FIFA World Cup held in Montreal, when they jointly campaigned to have the games held in Cardiff in 2034. Their discrete courtship went under the radar until the past year.

Williams will henceforth be known as ‘Prince Owen, Prince of Gwynedd’, the palace announced.

Williams, keeping a low profile in the last year, admitted in an interview that he was studying political science, history, and protocol in an effort to acquaint himself with his new role. “I do not want to let the people of Wales down,” Williams said adding, “I do not want to let my wife down.”

Williams’ love of sport, in particular football, will continue to remain important in his life. Williams said he plans to support youth athletic programs through-out the country in an effort to reinforce sportsmanship and community building in young people. Sports are an interest Williams shares with the princess. “We are a team,” Williams said, “a team that we will grow,” he added with a broad smile.

Williams, born and raised in Newport, admits that he needs to work on his Welsh language skills, but royal watchers believe his low keyed gregarious nature makes Williams and Anghared a solid couple who shares many common interests, and are relatable by the people.

The wedding celebrations over the past week are expected to be a financial boon for Cardiff, with city beatification projects begun shortly after the couple’s engagement was announced. Merchants in the capital and through-out the country stocked up on commemorative souvenirs. Hoteliers have reported full bookings during the celebration week, which included sold out performances held at St. David’s Hall, the Wales Millennium Center, Cardiff Castle, and a fireworks display over Cardiff Bay.

Over 600 guests from around the world attended the wedding, including from the royal families of Spain, the Netherlands, and Scandinavia. England’s King George VII and Queen Camilla were represented by TRH the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall.

The wedding celebrations were not without controversies and criticism, as the Welsh Republican Movement protested the spending of public funds of six million Euros on what republicans say was essentially a private family affair. The Welsh Republican Movement was first established in the 1950s but disbanded shortly thereafter, only to be reestablished as a splinter group from Plaid Cymru in 2018 during the highly contested national referendum on restoring the Welsh monarchy. The referendum was narrowly approved by 58 percent of the voters. Wales gained independence from Britain in 2016. However, support for the monarchy has increased, recently spiking to 69 percent this year. But the rise is still below the national average of other nations, such as the Netherlands and Denmark, whose monarchies enjoy over 80 percent approval by the people. In the Welsh Senedd, or parliament, the Republican Movement controls 16 seats and forms the second largest opposition party.

King Dafydd IV, however, enjoys 76 percent job approval rating, according to recent polls.

Welsh Prime Minister Mary Elisabeth Jenkins of the Welsh Labour party refuted criticism, and said that the wedding celebrations have given a national focus for the country, and are enjoyed by a large cross section of Welsh people as evidenced by the crowds. Jenkins added the wedding is worth the investment, high-lighting Wales internationally while drawing tourism from abroad. Morgan Price of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, a junior partner in the Welsh coalition government, said that the Welsh monarchy has provided a living central focal point of national pride above party politics. Plaid Cymru’s Dr. Llwyd Iorwerth Morris said the Welsh monarchy is a symbol that can unite the country, and that the king is a constitutional monarch.

Tomorrow the newlyweds will tour Wales, visiting Swansea, Carmarthen, Aberystwyth, Caernarfon, Wrexham, Llandrindod Wells, and Newport, then embarking on a month long honeymoon in the Caribbean.

 

[Lumutqueen]

William of Cornwall’s nuptials,

He is Prince William of Wales.
His father was invested as The Prince of Wales.

of the country’s first royal wedding since the restoration of the monarchy in 2018.

Restoration of a monarchy that hasn't happened for another 8 years?

 

[Keystone]

Yeah, it’s an alternative piece. It states in the article (dated 2030) that Wales achieved independence in 2016, and restored the Aberffraw heirs in 2018 after a "hotly contested referendum".

Amongst Welsh nationalist circles, the best I can do is referring to William 'of Cornwall'. Hopefully, Charles will be the last English Prince of Wales. I do not believe that the Statute of Rhuddlan is legitimate. At least it can be disestablished by any future independent Welsh government.

 

[Lumutqueen]

So it's a fictional article?

 

[Keystone]

So it's a fictional article?

Aye, with the exception that there currently is a legitimate heir according to Welsh primogeniture to the Aberffraw legacy as the leading Royal Family of Wales.

According to Hurbert Lewis in "The Ancient Laws of Wales", (1889. Chapter VIII: Royal Succession; Rules to Marriage; Alienation pgs 192–200.) that though not explicitly codified as such, the edling, or Heir apparent, was by convention, custom, and practice the eldest son of the lord and entitled to inherit the position and title as "head of the family" from the father. Effectively primogeniture with local variations. However, all sons were provided for out of the lands of the father and in certain circumstances so too were daughters. Additionally, sons could claim maternal patrimony through their mother in certain circumstances. In the late 12th Century, the Lord Rhys, Prince of Deheubarth attempted to enforce an amendment to Welsh law practiced there by excluding children born out of wedlock, favouring those born in wedlock. However, The Lord Rhys' eldest illigitimate son proved too popular and the resulting succession war tore Deheubarth (West Wales) apart, for which the Anglo-Normans took advantage of. Llywelyn the Great of Gwynedd became Prince of Wales in 1216 after the exhausted Dinefwr rulers of Deheubarth swore fealty to him. Llywelyn the Great then introduced the same succession rule in for his succession, bypassing Gruffydd Goch [the Red] (eldest illigitimate son) in favour of Dafydd II.


And thus, according to Burke's Peerage and application of Welsh law, then the current heir to the Royal Family of Wales would be Evan Vaughan Anwyl of Tywyn (b. 1946) and his son David Evan (b. 1977). In the article I assume that absolute cognatic primogeniture would be the succession law in a Welsh consititution post independence.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely have great respect to QEII, Charles (whom I expect to take the regnal name George VII), Camilla, and William. But I simply wish for an independent Wales with its own restored monarchy.

 

[MAfan]

Over 600 guests from around the world attended the wedding, including from the royal families of Spain, the Netherlands, and Scandinavia. England’s King George VII and Queen Camilla were represented by Prince William, Duke of Cornwall, and his wife Princess Katherine, Duchess of Cornwall.

I guess you're thinking to Catherine Middleton; btw, when (hopefully) she'll marry William and William will become the Heir to the British Throne, she won't be Princess Catherine, Duchess of Cornwall, but just The Duchess of Cornwall; and if she married William before he became Heir to the Throne, she would be Princess William.

 

[Keystone]

I guess you're thinking to Catherine Middleton; btw, when (hopefully) she'll marry William and William will become the Heir to the British Throne, she won't be Princess Catherine, Duchess of Cornwall, but just The Duchess of Cornwall; and if she married William before he became Heir to the Throne, she would be Princess William.

Yes, Catherine! I am so used to her as Kate! Thank you! Ill correct that in the "article"!

 

[Renata4711]

I usually post on the GB and Monaco forums, but I'm glad I ventured into the non-reigning department, otherwise I would have missed Keystone's wonderful piece on and independent Wales in 2030!

But, do you really think the Welsh would go for it? They have only just got the Welsh Assembly, and that took some doing.

We up here in Scotland are, even after ten years of the Scottish Parliament, still struggling with the concept at times.

 

[Keystone]

I am glad you stumbled upon us then! I expect most that follow the British royals would have a negative opinion on an independent Wales with a restored Welsh monarchy.

However, as to your question, at present Plaid Cymru is the second largest political party in the Welsh Assembly. However, support for Welsh independence holds around 15 to 20% depending on the polling, with support strongest in the Welsh language heartlands of Gwynedd, Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire, and a few other places. Out of the total Welsh population, 30% were born outside of Wales and do not regard themselves as Welsh, and only 7% of the total Welsh population considers themselves 'Welsh and British'.

My feeling is that Welsh independence will come once the Welsh population sees the benefits that come with taking full responsibilities for governance. In many ways, Wales was England's first real colony. It is interesting that the Welsh Assembly does not yet have policing authority within its own country! Policing is directed from London.

If you were to do a survey of the Welsh, I suspect many Welsh civic nationalists are republican- but not all. Plaid Cymru was not founded as a republican movement and almost all of the founders were monarchist. Influencial party member Dr DJ Davies wrote in the 1950s that an independent Wales would be better served by a restored Welsh monarchy, and that the monarchy would be above party politics. Dr. Davies believed that the Danish example was a model to emulate, as Davies was thoroughly enamored by Denmark. In his youth, Davies was a republican and did not become a monarchist until after his studies in Denmark. In the 1950s Plaid Cymru refused to endorse or adopt a republican manifesto, and republicans left the party to found the ‘Welsh Republican Movement’. The movement died out by the end of the 50s, and some of its members rejoined Plaid.

Amongst Plaid Cymru today, its hard to say how many are ‘republican’. Perhaps a part, the extreme socialist fraction, is republican, and mostly the youth. Of corse it is also considered to be envouge to be republican by some too. However, I suspect they are republican in the context of being 'anti-English monarchist'- its a way to mark a difference between them and England. Most Welsh nationalists go to rallies waving the royal banner of the Aberffraw family, or of Glyndwr- both of which look alike and most do not realize that there is indeed a difference. Owen Glyndwr’s lions are rampant while the Royal Aberffraw arms are Guardant. Glendwr decended from the cadet families of Aberffraw.... the Dinefwr of Deheubarth (West Wales) and the Mathrafal of Powys (mid Wales). The Aberffraw, the now the Anwyl family, are direct senior decendents Owain 'Gwynedd' Aberffraw, and thus hold the most legitimate claim as Kings of Wales.

Moreover, most do not know that there is indeed a living heir to the Aberffraw Legacy as the primary Royal Family of Wales. I suspect if this was more public, the Anwyl family would have greater visibility and support.

Later this year there will be a referendum to give more legislative competence to the Welsh Assembly, yet it will still not have tax raising powers and therefore cannot offer economic incentives to companies to locate to Wales. This will effect how the public view the Assembly, as most of the public does not know what the Assembly is responsible for verses the British Parliament.

In my narration, I assume the 2011 referendum grants more power to the Assembly and a surge in support for Welsh independence by the third Assembly election so that by 2016, Wales gains independence and by 2018 the Welsh monarchy is restored. That is all speculation and fantasy now.

I think that 30% born outside of Wales who do not consider themselves particularly Welsh will thwart any near-term aspirations towards Welsh independence.

So in the end, I do not know the time table for Welsh independence. I hope it is soon and within out lifetime. I would rather Wales be a republic then as it is now. I feel… that the Welsh would have had a history similar to that of Denmark had it been independent. I feel the Welsh have been robbed of its royal history by the 1284 conquest.

Are you a Scottish nationalist? In addition, would you wish for the restoration of the Jacobite claim to the Scottish throne? Alternatively, perhaps to elect another Stuart to the Scottish throne? I think there is a member of the Stuarts but descendent from an illegitimate line.

 

[James Frankcom]

Keystone - thank you for an entertaining and inspirational read!

Let's hope that an independent Welsh monarchy can be restored at some time in the future.

A genealogy stretching way back almost two thousand years from the living Evan Anwyl of Tywyn to Owain Gwynedd ap Gruffudd (d.1170) to Rhodri Mawr (d.878) and before that Llywerch Hen (c.550AD), Coel Hen the Dux Brittanorum (c.400AD) and eventually the Iron Age High Kings of the Britons (c.50AD) is not something to be "sniffed at" and is probably the oldest royal dynasty in the world.

Wales, a country so steeped in history and the worthy deeds of princes past deserves a modern monarchy to tie together the energy of the new Wales with the irrefutable national foundation of the old.

 

[Keystone]

James! We're two ships passing in the night! lol.


Which ever direction Wales decides to go, I do hope for Welsh independence: either as a republic or independent kingdom with a restored Aberffraw family in the most contemporary fashion (as the Netherlands or Denmark).

We shall see.

 

[norenxaq]

anything before 500 is legendary at best and the further back enters myth. as for the oldest royal dynasty, that would be the japanese

 

[Kasumi]

170 descendants gather to mark Welsh King's life - Wales online

 

[Keystone]

170 descendants gather to mark Welsh King's life - Wales online

Thank you very much Kasumi for spotting this!!!

If I remember my studies correctly, the family of Elystan had long been mediatised (vasselized) to the rulers of Gwynedd. During the Norman invasions (1068-1100) the Norman's displaced and killed Elystan's grandson Idnerth from his rule in Maelienydd (Radnorshire). The family were supportive of the Aberffraw family as primary royal family of Wales.... but they themselves had been displaced by the Marcher Mortimer family in the mid 12th century.

Very facinating. I always wonder how Welsh history, and Welsh royalty, would have evolved had not the Edwardian Conquest of 1287 occured. I imagine that many of these minor princely families would have become important "ducal" houses within a Welsh kingdom... say no more then four duchies decended from the four of the five ancient "royal houses" of Wales. The First houst of corse being the Aberffraw dynasty.

 

[Keystone]

Welsh plan anti-UK royal wedding.

Sign me up! Though I wish William of Cornwall and Kate well, Wales should restore its own monarchy!!!!

 

[Lumutqueen]

How big is the Welsh republic movement? I hadn't heard that it was that momentive.
Isn't William, Prince William of Wales? Or can the Cornwall and Wales be interchanged?

 

[Keystone]

How big is the Welsh republic movement? I hadn't heard that it was that momentive.
Isn't William, Prince William of Wales? Or can the Cornwall and Wales be interchanged?

Amongst those that wish for Welsh independence, republicanism runs strong. I suspect more as a way to distinguish themselves from England. In truth, I would rather Wales restored its own monarchy. A decendant lives today in Meirionydd in Gwynedd. He would be my King of Wales.

I can not refer to William 'of Wales' because he is not Welsh. He is 'of England'.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Have you an attachement to Wales, family or something?
How does this descendant feel about possible being a King? Are there any percentages that show Wales wants it's own Monarchy or doesn't like HM and the royal family.

 

[Keystone]

“Have you an attachment to Wales, family or something?”


Or, something. The Llewellyn’s, my family, migrated from Wales to Pennsylvania sometime in the early to mid 19th century, and from there to East Tennessee around the 1870s. After learning of our Welsh roots, I have to say it is somewhat disappointing to know that Wales was conquered, and that forms the basis for it’s inclusion in the UK monarchy.



“How does this descendant feel about possible being a King? “

There are at least two possible candidates documented as descendents according to Burkes Peerage, one of which is mentioned above. I tend to favor the Anwyl line myself.

I do not know how the two feel about possibly being king. With the Statues of Rhuddlan, the instrument of abject surrender for the Welsh (if you will) abolished all native honors and dignities of the Welsh. If the heirs of the Aberffraw legacy did not denounce their claims to the throne they would be imprisoned for life, as was the sons of Dafydd III.

A hypothetical if you will: The effect of the Statue of Rhuddlan abolishing the Welsh monarchy would be similar to if the Soviet Union somehow successfully occupied England and abolished the UK monarchy. Would any of George VI’s descendents have a claim to the abolished English monarchy under such a circumstance? Even though the Soviet Socialist Republic of England was incorporated into some wider Soviet Empire, and the Windsor family were rooted out of England or forced to surrender their claims. Would their heirs have claim then?

Are there any percentages that show Wales wants its own Monarchy or doesn't like HM and the royal family?

I do not think the question about restoring a Welsh monarchy has been asked in the form of a poll as yet. But it has been talked about in nationalist circles. As noted above, influential Plaid Cymru essayist Dr. DJ. Davies addressed the issue in his work “Wales Must Have A Monarchy”, in which he advocated the independence of Wales with the restoration of a native Welsh dynasty to the throne of Wales, and suggested the Rice/Rhys family of Dinefwr (the Dinefwr family were dynastically junior to the Aberffraw claims, thus junior to the Anwyl family). Davies was once himself a staunch republican but came to believe in the ideas of constitutional monarchy in the Danish tradition. And as recently as this past decade the issue was brought up in Cambria magazine article “Why Not a Welsh Royal Family”.

As the Welsh rediscover their own royal past of its own royal family, I am sure interest will continue to rise.



David Llewellyn

 

[Kasumi]

Rhys family of Dinefwr

Rhys ap Gruffudd: the medieval warrior-prince (1131-1197)
Rhys ap Thomas: Soldier, knight, landowner, king-maker (1448-1525)

Coat of arms of Dinefwr

 

[ChristopherWales]

We Welsh people are bit confused. Which Royal family should we restore to the throne of all Wales? We belonged to different tribes/clans. Mine was the Silures. The Bretons and Cornish peoples are also descended from the Silures of South Wales and what is now West of England. Even after Roman times The Kings of Glamorgan and Gwent still used the title of Cheif of the Silures. As used by Iestyn - ap - Gwrgan who was the last King/Prince of Glamorgan and Gwent (Southeast Wales)

I am something like a great grandson 25 times removed from Iestyn - ap - Gwrgan. Other people who are more noteworthy than myself and are also descended from Iestyn are Oliver Cromwell Diana Spencer and George Bush and Winston Churchill

 

[Midwestern Mom]

Weren't the Llewellens the last main rulers of Wales? I know it wasn't totally cohesive but I thought they were the ones who were most often in conflict with England.


MM

 

[ChristopherWales]

The Welsh were split into different family groups who lived indifferent areas of Wales. Glamorgan and Gwent for example were ruled by the descendants of the Kings of the Silures. A tribe that were never conquered by the Romans. These Kings were also the Old High Kings of the Britons. Not to be confused with and English king or queen. Llywelyn came from a junior branch of this family. So the Williams family of South Wales might also claim to be the rightful rulers of Wales and perhaps the whole of Britain. The Tudors are also related to the same family. King Henry the VII,VIII and Elizabeth the 1st and the Scottish royal house of Stewart are also related to former royal family of Southeast Wales. As is HRH Queen Elizabeth The Second. God Bless her and long may she live.

To go back to the subject of Welsh Royal House's none of them ruled the whole of Wales. They might have become the High Prince or King but they never replaced the local ruler. It is also worth remembering you could only live in a certain part of Wales if you had your families permission to live there. And who was the head of the family? Your local Prince/ruler. Life back then was really complicated.

 

[Midwestern Mom]

I think the Scots had a similar system, their Clans. I've always gotten the impression that the Welsh system was a bit more strung out but that could just be misunderstanding on my part.

As far as the Jacobites are concerned there is a rightful ruler of Scotland living and it's not QEII....do some Welsh have a similar view about their country?


MM

 

[ChristopherWales]

Most of us Welsh Cymraig are pro Queen Elizabeth however, we are not too keen on Prince Charles and indeed he does not seem too keen about us. We tend to worry more about our international rugby team than the Prince of Wales. If Wales were to become independent from England I think we would become a republic or even keep the Windsors Queen Elizabeth and company. It is also worth mentioning that the currant Prince of Wales does not hold any power or any official office in Wales and is the Prince of Wales simply by his mother's bequest. HRH Queen Elizabeth II remains Queen of Wales because she is the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and other realms.

 

[Domhangairt]

Prince Charles can only claim the title "Prince of Wales" in terms of the English Statute of Ruddhlan, 1284. This is not recognized under native Welsh law. The Welsh Principality of Gwynedd is arguably the most senior- the only Princes of a briefly united Principality of Wales were from this line, also known as the House of Aberffraw. The Welsh principalities could only pass through the male line with legitimate sons taking precedence over illegitimate sons. The last Welsh Prince Dafydd III was of an illegitimate line.

The only serious claimants today are Evan Anwyl of Tywyn (I have actually spoken to him), and his son Daffyd, and two cousins, one Roger Anwyl, who is a professor at Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland, and the other Phillip Anwyl who lives in Sussex, England. Daffyd is married to Caroline Owen of Nantwich. They have a daughter, Carys Anne Anwyl, born in 2008. Daffyd and his family live in Birmingham, or Manchester. The Anwyl family claim descent in the male line from Rhodri II Ap Owain, Prince of Gwynedd 1170-90, uncle of Llewellyn II "the Great", Prince of All Wales 1216-1240, and Prince of Gwynedd from 1195. Llewellyn was the grandfather of Dafydd III, the last prince who was brutally executed by England's King Edward Plantagenet.

Recently, David Wolcott (see www.ancientwalesstudies.org) has challenged the Anwyll family's descent, but Wolcott's arguments have not been independently supported, or verified, so Evan Anwyl's claim still stands. Ultimately, Y-DNA tests will resolve this debate.

Most Welsh respect the Queen, but the same respect does not necessarily extend to her son Charles. The native Welsh royals stand quite a good chance of being restored, if Wales broke away from England. The republican camp in Wales is small, even among Plaid Cymru.
.

 

[ChristopherWales]

Which Prince of Wales

Ask most people living in South Wales. "Where is Gwynedd"? Their reply will be. "I do not have a clue"? Even though Wales is a very small country with only 3 million people living here. It still takes 4 to 5 hours to drive from the south to the north of my beloved country.

Most people living in South Wales know more about the country and peoples and history of South Africa than they do of North Wales. Whilst most Welsh speakers living in Gwynedd call any non Welsh speaker living in Wales "English" regardless of where they were born.

The Welsh language which is spoken in South Wales is different to North Welsh in many ways some people think it could almost be a different language which happens to closely related to each other such as Cornish and Breton.

Queen Elizabeth is actually a blood descendant of all the former Princely families of Wales as was Diana Princess of Wales through her Spencer/Churchill family. So it could be very difficult proving that Queen Elizabeth does not have the right to rule over Wales.

 

[ChristopherWales]

Most people living in South Wales Support The Labour Party (socialist) and I doubt they would want to set up a Welsh monarchy to replace the queen. If Wales were to become independent tomorrow we would not worry about who should be the rightful ruler of Wales.

The things we would worry about are:
Education
Health Care
Jobs
Transport
Rugby football

Most Welsh people respect the queen and would not consider replacing her until after her death and may that day be a very long way away still. It is true that Prince Charles is not very popular here. Nobody should forget the Prince William affect and it has not gone unnoticed the fact that he is now living with his wife in an ordinary house on the Isle of Angleysea or Ynys Mon whilst he serving in the RAF.

So the question must still remain who or which family can really claim to be the rightful rulers of Wales?