Questions about Future Queens, Dowagers and Surviving Spouses

[popsicle]

i have a quick question

let's say William becomes king after Charles and marries a woman who then becomes queen (consort), but Will dies without having any children. So then the throne passes to Harry, who is also married, and who then becomes king. Does William's wife continue to be called 'queen'? Does she give this title up to Harry's wife??

sorry that might be a silly question but i was just wondering!

 

[Warren]

William's widow, as a Queen Consort, would be the "Dowager Queen", just as Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth were. However, she would most likely be known as "Queen xxx" in general usage.

Queen Mary was still "Queen Mary" after George V died, and Queen Elizabeth was still Queen Elizabeth, although called "Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother" after the death of George VI.

Harry's wife would probably just be referred to as "The Queen".

 

[Elspeth]

If William predeceases his wife, whether he's succeeded by his brother or a son or daughter of his own, his wife will still be known as Queen, since that was her title when she was widowed. If a child of hers becomes king or queen, she'd be Queen Mother (whether she used the title or not - much as Queen Elizabeth did and Queen Mary didn't); if her husband was succeeded by another family member, she'd become Queen Dowager. I read somewhere that a Queen Mother has more rights than a Queen Dowager (a fact that was supposed to have pleased Queen Mary after George V's death), but it didn't go into details about what those rights were.

 

[sara1981]

dont let Camilla become Queen i cant believe she did! but i wanted William become King!

Sara Boyce

 

[Warren]

Precedence

I read somewhere that a Queen Mother has more rights than a Queen Dowager (a fact that was supposed to have pleased Queen Mary after George V's death), but it didn't go into details about what those rights were.

I think it would just be in order of precedence.

If there were three Queens living, as for example, Queen Elizabeth II, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, and [Dowager] Queen Mary from February 1952 to March 1953, the order of precendence would be in that order.

Queen Mary would have been "Queen Mother" during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI, before being "relegated" to Queen Dowager, aka Queen Mary, when Elizabeth II came to the Throne.
.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

If William predeceases his wife, whether he's succeeded by his brother or a son or daughter of his own, his wife will still be known as Queen, since that was her title when she was widowed. If a child of hers becomes king or queen, she'd be Queen Mother (whether she used the title or not - much as Queen Elizabeth did and Queen Mary didn't); if her husband was succeeded by another family member, she'd become Queen Dowager. I read somewhere that a Queen Mother has more rights than a Queen Dowager (a fact that was supposed to have pleased Queen Mary after George V's death), but it didn't go into details about what those rights were.

Why would they have different rights?

 

[Elspeth]

I have no idea why they would, but apparently it's something that Queen Mary discovered and was pleased that she had more rights as a Queen Mother than she would have had as just a Queen Dowager.

 

[Ennyllorac]

I have no idea why they would, but apparently it's something that Queen Mary discovered and was pleased that she had more rights as a Queen Mother than she would have had as just a Queen Dowager.

Perhaps it is that as Queen Mother you are a blood relative of the current monarch, but as Queen Dowager you are not blood related to the monarch.

 

[Iluvbertie]

A Queen Mother is also a Queen Dowager. A Queen Mother is the mother of the monarch. A Queen Dowager is the wife of a deceased King. A Queen Mother must have been a Queen first and therefore the wife of a deceased King but a Queen Dowager is not necessarily the mother of the monarch.

The last time that Britain had a Queen Dowager who was not also a Queen Mother was when Queen Victoria became Queen and Queen Adelaide was still alive. Queen Adelaide was a Queen Dowager only but later Queens such as Alexandra, Mary and Elizabeth were both Queen Dowagers and Queen Mothers during the reigns of their child(ren).

 

[Ennyllorac]

A Queen Mother is also a Queen Dowager. A Queen Mother is the mother of the monarch. A Queen Dowager is the wife of a deceased King. A Queen Mother must have been a Queen first and therefore the wife of a deceased King but a Queen Dowager is not necessarily the mother of the monarch.

The last time that Britain had a Queen Dowager who was not also a Queen Mother was when Queen Victoria became Queen and Queen Adelaide was still alive. Queen Adelaide was a Queen Dowager only but later Queens such as Alexandra, Mary and Elizabeth were both Queen Dowagers and Queen Mothers during the reigns of their child(ren).

Thank you for clearing that up!

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

A Queen Mother is also a Queen Dowager. A Queen Mother is the mother of the monarch. A Queen Dowager is the wife of a deceased King. A Queen Mother must have been a Queen first and therefore the wife of a deceased King but a Queen Dowager is not necessarily the mother of the monarch.

The last time that Britain had a Queen Dowager who was not also a Queen Mother was when Queen Victoria became Queen and Queen Adelaide was still alive. Queen Adelaide was a Queen Dowager only but later Queens such as Alexandra, Mary and Elizabeth were both Queen Dowagers and Queen Mothers during the reigns of their child(ren).

That took a moment to comprehend, but that really does make sense.

 

[Elspeth]

It still doesn't explain what extra rights a queen mother has that a queen dowager doesn't have, though. As Warren said, it probably has something to do with precedence, but there may be more to it.

If Charles becomes king and Camilla outlives him, we may see what happens to queen dowagers in reality rather than just talking hypothetically.

 

[wymanda]

I always understood that the title "Queen Mother" was created for Queen Elizabeth as she did not wish to be known as Queen Dowager and to avoid confusion with her Daughter Queen Elizabeth II. Prior to that Queen Mary & Queen Alexandra were known only by their names rather than by a title.

 

[Iluvbertie]

You are correct that the title Queen Mother was created for the late Queen Mum but the other ladies were also Queen Mothers as well as Queen Dowagers while Queen Adelaide wasn't.

I don't really think there is that much difference in status relating to a queen mother against a Queen Dowager except that a queen mother would have certain access rights to their child and status coming from that relationship that may not exist for a Queen Dowager.

When I get some time, and that won't be any time soon unfortunately, I will research the activities of Queen Adelaide and compare them with the later Queen's after the deaths of their husbands and kings.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

Well, most Queen mothers don't have much say, do they?

 

[EtienneDuchessofBurgundy]

Around the time of the beginning of Queen Elizabeth's reign after her father-King George VI- died, Queen Mary was still alive, Mary was known as "Queen Dowager" and since the elder Queen Elizabeth couldn't have that title and she didn't want people to be confused with the present Queen and she was QE's mother, she called herself the "Queen Mother" or "Queen Mum" for short and it stuck thereafter.....

 

[Reina]

hmmm...i wonder what camilla will be called if charles dies while he is king and leaves her as a widow. I am sure it will be dowager queen. surely it won't be queen mum...no way

 

[sara1981]

hmmm...i wonder what camilla will be called if charles dies while he is king and leaves her as a widow. I am sure it will be dowager queen. surely it won't be queen mum...no way

i agree it!

but let William become King but Camilla will known as Princess of Consort because Camilla and Charles is divorcees!

Sara Boyce

 

[Mandy]

hmmm...i wonder what camilla will be called if charles dies while he is king and leaves her as a widow. I am sure it will be dowager queen. surely it won't be queen mum...no way

Camilla would have to be the mother of the future monarch in order to be called Queen Mum.

 

[sara1981]

Camilla would have to be the mother of the future monarch in order to be called Queen Mum.

oh my gosh!

Sara Boyce

 

[Mandy]

oh my gosh!

Sara Boyce

Sarah, calm down! There is no way that Charles and Camilla will ever have any children together. Therefore Camilla will never be the mother of a future monarch and she will never be called Queen Mum.

 

[Elspeth]

She would probably be called Queen Camilla, unless William's wife was also called Camilla; under those circumstances she might have to settle for Queen Dowager.

 

[tiaraprin]

I hope and pray it would be Princess Consort Dowager, not Queen Dowager! No queenship for Camilla!

 

[Elspeth]

If she was just known as Princess Consort during Charles's reign, I assume that's what she'd continue to be known as afterwards since there'd be no fear of confusion between her and William's wife. If she's known as Queen during Charles's reign, she'd probably be Queen Camilla afterwards.

Even if she's known as Princess Consort, she'll still be queen if Charles becomes king unless there's special legislation to prevent it.

 

[branchg]

Camilla cannot assume the style and title of "HRH the Princess Consort" without legislation in Parliament and acceptance by the Commonwealth countries. The wife of the King is automatically Queen Consort and that question was settled in 1936. There is no way the Government will allow her to be anything else without legislation.

It is hoped that by the time Charles ascends to the throne, this matter will be irrelevant and the people will accept Camilla as Queen Consort. In my opinion, given the reality that the Queen may reign another 15 years or so, it is likely this will be the case.

If Charles died before ascending the throne, Camilla would remain a princess of the UK unless the Queen grants her another style and title. The title Prince of Wales merges with the Crown upon the death of the holder. Assuming the Queen then regranted the title to Prince William as the new heir, it is likely Camilla would be granted a dukedom to hold in her own right for her lifetime with the style of HRH (such as HRH the Duchess of Sussex). If Charles dies after becoming King, Camilla remains Queen Dowager with precedence after the new queen consort.

In Queen Elizabeth's case, upon the death of her husband King George VI, she became a Queen Dowager, along with Queen Mary. In this case, the Queen Mother held precedence ahead of Queen Mary since her daughter was the Sovereign. Normally, Queen Dowagers would hold precedence in order of reigns, so Queen Mary first, then Queen Elizabeth, however, she was also Queen Mother so her precedence came after her daughter.

 

[Elspeth]

Camilla cannot assume the style and title of "HRH the Princess Consort" without legislation in Parliament and acceptance by the Commonwealth countries. The wife of the King is automatically Queen Consort and that question was settled in 1936. There is no way the Government will allow her to be anything else without legislation.

Someone needs to tell the webmaster of the royal family's official site, then. They make it sound like a done deal already.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page3974.asp

No doubt it's hoped that this won't arise because people will be so used to her at the time of Charles's accession (and Diana will increasingly be a part of history rather than current events) that it'll be quite natural for her to simply become queen consort, or Charles will predecease the Queen and the whole issue will become irrelevant. However, for the moment they aren't talking about passing legislation, they're saying that she WILL be known as HRH the Princess Consort.

 

[branchg]

Well, they also made it sound like that Camilla would not be HRH The Princess of Wales, but Duchess of Cornwall when marrying Prince Charles. When MP's questioned whether the marriage would be morganatic, it was only then made clear by the PM and the Prince that she WOULD be Princess of Wales automatically, but had chosen to be known as Duchess of Cornwall instead (obviously with the Queen's approval).

It was made clear upon further questioning of Parliament that Camilla WOULD NOT be HRH Princess Consort without legislation being introduced to allow her to do so. The Lord Chancellor stated legally Camilla would be Queen Consort when Charles ascended the throne, however, the matter of legislation may have to be considered when the time came if she wished to be Princess Consort instead.

Right now, Camilla is HRH The Princess of Wales, but permitted by the Sovereign to be known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall instead. Without legislation, she will be Queen Camilla if Charles ascends the throne. Will a future Government allow Charles, as King, to issue a royal warrant granting Camilla the style and title of HRH the Princess Consort when in law she is already Queen Consort? This is highly unlikely and without precedent constitutionally.

Everyone in the current Government knows Camilla will be Queen Consort. They're just hoping the matter will be a non-issue by the time Charles ascends the throne. I also think there is consensus that the Queen may be the last of the true monarchs of the UK, and by the time a King Charles III ascends, the crown will be reduced even further to a mere symbol of the past, with an elected head of state.

 

[Elspeth]

As far as I remember from discussions here at the time the engagement was announced, it was fairly clear right from the start that she'd BE the Princess of Wales but that she'd be KNOWN by another of her titles. I don't think anybody officially tried to claim that she wouldn't be Princess of Wales, they just seemed to think that by saying she'd be known as the Duchess of Cornwall, people somehow wouldn't notice that she'd be Princess of Wales too. That must rank as one of the most wildly optimistic opinions in recent history.

The issue of Princess Consort versus Queen Consort is a different one, because the former isn't a recognised title. Again, it seems like a rather vain attempt to avoid having to face something that's likely to be currently unpopular. I expect these same optimists think that, if the legislation is ever put into the works, nobody will notice until it's happened.

They must live in a different world from the rest of us.

 

[Feberin]

When Charles ascends the throne I think Camilla should become Queen Consort and known as Queen Camilla. She will be married to the king and giving her a special title to avoid her being Queen Camilla won't change the influence she will have on the King and her position in the line of precedence. And it will be so very confusing when historians look back hundreds of years later and try to figure out the reason this woman wasn't Queen and a special title was created for her. There have been unpopular queens in the past however they weren't denied the title.

 

[Frothy]

Elspeth

she'd be Queen Mother

I don't think so. I don't think there is any such title as Queen Mother, frankly. It was a one-off personally requested by Queen Elizabeth solely because her daughter was also called Elizabeth; she asked for --- the Queen Mother after HM Queen Elizabeth in order to distinguish herself from her daughter.

IMO, it is an ugly style and one I hope we do not see more of.

No English Queen has ever, to my knowledge, used the style Queen Mother except E. Bowes-Lyon.

As to Camilla, the palace has already clarified that she is, right now, the Princess of Wales. She is merely using a lesser style.