Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence

[Princess Robijn]

The Coat of Arms of the Kingdom of The Netherlands

Titles, names and the new line of succession


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[vittoria]

Has anyone answered this question? What will be the order of precedence for Dutch royal women after the abdication? Will Beatrix still precede Maxima in that order, having been a queen regnant and being, of course, a royal born? Or will Maxima, as Queen Consort, outrank Princess Beatrix?

 

[NGalitzine]

^^^^^
Once Beatrix signs to abdication act she is constitutionally dead.....no more a Queen. She becomes once more a Princess of The Netherlands as she was born. She will not outrank either her son or her daughter in law.

 

[Marengo]

The Dutch RF isn't that strict on precedence etc. Technically Friso and Mabel should walk behind Constantijn, Margriet, Maurits and Benrhard jr+ spouses, but in pratice they usually followed WA & Máxima.

But Máxima as HM will have presendence over her mother-in-law, who will be an HRH.

 

[Artemisia]

Has anyone answered this question? What will be the order of precedence for Dutch royal women after the abdication? Will Beatrix still precede Maxima in that order, having been a queen regnant and being, of course, a royal born? Or will Maxima, as Queen Consort, outrank Princess Beatrix?

I am not an expert in Dutch Order of Precedence (if one exists) but as the Queen Consort, Maxima would certainly outrank Princess Beatrix.
It is possible that Beatrix will be the next lady in the Kingdom immediately after Queen Maxima but that wouldn't be automatic.

In theory, Beatrix should be accorded the same precedence as Princess Margriet (daughter of a Monarch other than the current one) and rank below not only Maxima, Amalia, Alexia and Ariane, but also Laurentien.

 

[crm2317]

I realise posters have been kind enough to explain why Maurits and Bernhard will lose their place in succession but I'm not sure I understand.

You say that you must be related by three degrees? Surely currently then with Beatrix as Queen the three degrees are her children, grandchildren and sister. Why do her nephews still have a place?

And when W-A ascends why is the three degrees not his children, brother and nieces and nephew? Why is Margriet still included?

 

[Artemisia]

I realise posters have been kind enough to explain why Maurits and Bernhard will lose their place in succession but I'm not sure I understand.

You say that you must be related by three degrees? Surely currently then with Beatrix as Queen the three degrees are her children, grandchildren and sister. Why do her nephews still have a place?

And when W-A ascends why is the three degrees not his children, brother and nieces and nephew? Why is Margriet still included?

The degrees of relation don't work quite like that.

Those currently in the succession line are the Queen's relations in three degrees:
Beatrix -> Margriet (sister through royal parent) -> Maurits and Bernhard (sister's sons)
Beatrix -> Willem-Alexander (son) -> Amalia, Alexia, Ariane (son's daughters)
Beatrix -> Constantijn (son) -> Eloise, Claus-Casimir and Eleonore (son's children)

Three degrees of relations from Willem-Alexander include only his own daughters, his brother, his brother's children and his aunt.
Willem Alexander -> Amalia, Alexia, Ariane (daughters)
Willem-Alexander -> Constantijn -> Eloise, Claus-Casimir and Eleonore (brother's children)
William-Alexander -> Queen Beatrix (royal parent) -> Princess Margriet (mother's royal sister)

Bernhard and Maurits will be excluded because they are Willem-Alexander's relations in fourth degree:
William-Alexander -> Queen Beatrix (mother) -> Princess Margriet (mother's sister) -> Prince Bernhard and Prince Maurits

In the same way, Maurits and Bernhard's children are currently not in the succession line because they are Queen Beatrix's fourth degree relations:
Beatrix -> Margriet (sister) -> Maurits (sister's sons) -> Anna, Lucas and Felicia (the children of the sisters son)
Beatrix -> Margriet (sister) -> Bernhard (sister's sons) -> Isabella, Samuel and Benjamin

Theoretically, if Amalia had a child during Queen Beatrix's reign, the child wouldn't have been in the Line of Succession as well, despite being heir apparent (to the heir apparent of the Heir Apparent)

 

[crm2317]

Thank you Artemisia!

 

[susan alicia]

that does not sound right.....

I am not an expert in Dutch Order of Precedence (if one exists) but as the Queen Consort, Maxima would certainly outrank Princess Beatrix.
It is possible that Beatrix will be the next lady in the Kingdom immediately after Queen Maxima but that wouldn't be automatic.

In theory, Beatrix should be accorded the same precedence as Princess Margriet (daughter of a Monarch other than the current one) and rank below not only Maxima, Amalia, Alexia and Ariane,

but also Laurentien

.

 

[Artemisia]

that does not sound right.....

You are right, it isn't. I was basing my observation on the fact that once the Queen reverts to her birth title of a Princess, she will presumably also accorded the precedence of a Sovereign's daughter. Usually, wives of Sovereign's children outrank the Sovereign's daughters; however, during Willem-Alexander's reign Laurentien will be not wife of the Sovereign's son but wife of the Sovereign's brother - something I momentarily forgot.

In practice, I think Queen Beatrix will have a precedence immediately after the Queen Consort (Maxima) and above that of the Heir Apparent (Amalia).

 

[NGalitzine]

In practice, I think Queen Beatrix will have a precedence immediately after the Queen Consort (Maxima) and above that of the Heir Apparent (Amalia).

Given that the Princess of Orange is a 9 year old school girl that seems most likely.

 

[Artemisia]

Given that the Princess of Orange is a 9 year old school girl that seems most likely.

Do you happen to know whether the Dutch Order of Precedence is like the British one in the respect one can only be included upon coming of age? Or you are in it pretty much from birth?

 

[Princess Robijn]

Titles and names:

When Queen Beatrix abdicates, His Royal Highness the Prince of Orange will become King Willem-Alexander, and Her Royal Highness Princess Máxima of the Netherlands will become Queen Máxima. They will both be addressed as 'Your Majesty'. After abdicating, Queen Beatrix will be called Her Royal Highness Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, etc. As soon as the Prince of Orange ascends the throne, his eldest child, Her Royal Highness Princess Catharina-Amalia, will be the first in line to the throne. She will then become the Princess of Orange (under section 7 of the Membership of the Royal House Act).

The titles and names of the other members of the Royal Family will not change after Queen Beatrix's abdication. The membership of the Royal House and the line of succession will however change under the above Act.

Source: RVD

 

[Princess Robijn]

Line of succession following the abdication of Queen Beatrix

1. HRH the Princess of Orange, Princess Catharina-Amalia, 1st daughter of the King.
2. HRH Princess Alexia, 2nd daughter of the King.
3. HRH Princess Ariane, 3rd daughter of the King.
4. HRH Prince Constantijn, youngest brother of the King.
5. Countess Eloise of Orange-Nassau, eldest child of Prince Constantijn
6. Count Claus-Casimir of Orange-Nassa, middle child and only son of Prince Constantijn
7. Countess Leonore of Orange-Nassa, youngest child of Prince Constantijn
8. Princess Margriet, aunt of the King

After the abdication, the line of succession will begin with the children of His Majesty the King: Her Royal Highness the Princess of Orange, Her Royal Highness Princess Alexia, and Her Royal Highness Princess Ariane. The next in line will be His Royal Highness Prince Constantijn, his children and finally Her Royal Highness Princess Margriet.

After the abdication, the children of Her Royal Highness Princess Margriet of the Netherlands and Professor Pieter van Vollenhoven will no longer be eligible for the throne. They will also cease to be members of the Royal House.

Source: RVD

 

[Artemisia]

[ Mod. note: this post has been moved from this thread.]

Why does Beatrix title revert to Princess upon abdicating, instead of "The Queen Mother"?
It seems disrespectful and dismissive to downgrade her.

Because Queen Mother is a title that can only belong to the widowed Queen Consort (Queen Dowager) who is also the mother of the current Monarch.
Queen Beatrix isn't a Queen Dowager and was never a Queen Consort - she is a Queen Regnant. As such, she simply cannot hold the title.

As for the title of a Princess, that is according to the Act of Membership in the Royal House: an abdicated Monarch reverts to his/her birth title of a Prince/Princess of the Netherlands.

 

[cdm]

I think the name of W-A and Maxima's subforum isn't right at the moment.
It says Prince and Princess of Orange and their family.
But I think only W-A is Prince of Orange at the moment. Maxima isn't Princess of Orange.
Or am I wrong?

 

[SLV]

I think the name of W-A and Maxima's subforum isn't right at the moment.
It says Prince and Princess of Orange and their family.
But I think only W-A is Prince of Orange at the moment. Maxima isn't Princess of Orange.
Or am I wrong?

I think that you are correct. Maxima is not Princes of Orange. But it will all change very soon anyway.

 

[Artemisia]

I think the name of W-A and Maxima's subforum isn't right at the moment.
It says Prince and Princess of Orange and their family.
But I think only W-A is Prince of Orange at the moment. Maxima isn't Princess of Orange.
Or am I wrong?

You are not wrong. Maxima is not Princess of Orange because the title of Prince/Princess of Orange is reserved only for the heir apparent to the Throne - and never their spouses. However, Maxima is Princess of Orange-Nassau; just before her marriage, she had been created Princess of the Netherlands and Princess of Orange-Nassau in her own right.

I think the "Prince and Princess of Orange" is simply used for convenience.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I understand where people are coming from to favour the title Queen for Maxima, it helps that she very popular.

But in general, and for reasons of equality (the males remain princes anyway), I think the consort should remain a prince or princess and that the title King or Queen should be exclusive for the REIGNING monarch.

 

[lucien]

I understand where people are coming from to favour the title Queen for Maxima, it helps that she very popular.

But in general, and for reasons of equality (the males remain princes anyway), I think the consort should remain a prince or princess and that the title King or Queen should be exclusive for the REIGNING monarch.

I disagree Your Grace....As you know the wife always adopts the title of the husband,as a courtesy title,never a Queen Regnant.Whereas the Queen Regnant is that and the same rule applying to a husband would be too much of it all indeed,there would be a "new"ruling House..

No,a Kings spouse is a Queen,even for Camilla...as that is per chance where you come from..hah!..

No,one does have Kings and Queens,and that will remain to be the case as it always was and has been and will be...But what about the title of Duke...The world wouldn't notice of that was to be abolished would it...?
Just askin....grin...

 

[lucien]

Btw,Make a Difference Day will be held in the same style in the future as it has been the past years,the next MaDD is next month.

The Royal Cypher over the Throne in the Hall of Knights gets an intertwined W&A instead of the "B" now.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I disagree Your Grace....As you know the wife always adopts the title of the husband,as a courtesy title,never a Queen Regnant.Whereas the Queen Regnant is that and the same rule applying to a husband would be too much of it all indeed,there would be a "new"ruling House..

No,a Kings spouse is a Queen,even for Camilla...as that is per chance where you come from..hah!..

No,one does have Kings and Queens,and that will remain to be the case as it always was and has been and will be...But what about the title of Duke...The world wouldn't notice of that was to be abolished would it...?
Just askin....grin...

Hands off my title!!!

Honestly, I dont think that a Queens husband should be a prince while Kings wife is a queen.

I believe in other countries, where the monarchy is not as rock solid as in the Netherlands or where there are controversies in that respect, I can imagine the Queen consort to be known as princess X (despite technically being a queen), eg Camilla or Letizia, to deflect from the importance of their own person.

 

[Bine221]

Hands off my title!!!

Honestly, I dont think that a Queens husband should be a prince while Kings wife is a queen.

I believe in other countries, where the monarchy is not as rock solid as in the Netherlands or where there are controversies in that respect, I can imagine the Queen consort to be known as princess X (despite technically being a queen), eg Camilla or Letizia, to deflect from the importance of their own person.

Why a Princess Letizia after a Queen Sophia? It does not makes sense, IMO
BYe Bine

 

[Bine221]

Titles and names:

When Queen Beatrix abdicates, His Royal Highness the Prince of Orange will become King Willem-Alexander, and Her Royal Highness Princess Máxima of the Netherlands will become Queen Máxima. They will both be addressed as 'Your Majesty'. After abdicating, Queen Beatrix will be called Her Royal Highness Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, etc. As soon as the Prince of Orange ascends the throne, his eldest child, Her Royal Highness Princess Catharina-Amalia, will be the first in line to the throne. She will then become the Princess of Orange (under section 7 of the Membership of the Royal House Act).

The titles and names of the other members of the Royal Family will not change after Queen Beatrix's abdication. The membership of the Royal House and the line of succession will however change under the above Act.

Source: RVD

It seems, there are some rumors since yesterday, that -- according to an old law -- cannot been given the tital of a Queen. In theory she should remain Princess, unless the Parliamant is changing the law. What are the details around that?
Or just rumors?
BYe Bine

 

[lucien]

It seems, there are some rumors since yesterday, that -- according to an old law -- cannot been given the tital of a Queen. In theory she should remain Princess, unless the Parliamant is changing the law. What are the details around that?
Or just rumors?
BYe Bine

Bine,good you bring that up so it can be deld with here and now and then tumble into oblivion as I hope goes for the two nitwits that brought it up...Not rumours,but Ignorance by two holyer then thou infantile lawyers who said the PM was to early to announce Máxima would hold the title Queen.

Which ofcourse as we all know is absolute ballony as the spouse of a King AUTOMATICALLY and since centuries take the courtesy title of Queen,no law,no parliament can ever change that,it just went on show again how painfully ignorant some jerks are in regard to what they think they can utter on any subject,let alone our RF.So,in short,this nonsense by these two raised my bloodpressure but found it's way in the trashcan.

Meanwhile the PM has explained exactly the same,well,almost...but on the titles,and besides,it is all on the Royal House website on what happens with titles and when.But why check in this uberspoiled day and age where each is getting all too used to have everything at the ready to consume...in any which way..why read...Other then that,it's saturday in the Kingdom,have a whale of a time!

 

[kathia_sophia]

its probably just rumours or otherwise the official site of the Dutch royal family would not confirm that Maxima will be a Queen.
and since her 40 birthday, they said (i think the Parliamant) that she will be granted the title of Queen when her husband ascends the throne.

 

[lucien]

its probably just rumours or otherwise the official site of the Dutch royal family would not confirm that Maxima will be a Queen.
and since her 40 birthday, they said (i think the Parliamant) that she will be granted the title of Queen when her husband ascends the throne.

Parliament has no-,and never has,any say in the Titles.Ever.
Ignore it,and go by the Royal House website and some of our posters here.

 

[Princess Robijn]

It seems, there are some rumors since yesterday, that -- according to an old law -- cannot been given the tital of a Queen. In theory she should remain Princess, unless the Parliamant is changing the law. What are the details around that?
Or just rumors?
BYe Bine

I just looked up the 2002 law "Wet lidmaatschap koninklijk huis". (That's the law it's all about)

wetten.nl - Wet- en regelgeving - Wet lidmaatschap koninklijk huis - BWBR0013729 -- Google Translation

Article 8 lists those people eligible to be created a Prince or Princess of the Netherlands

a. Spouse of the King
b. Children born from the marriage of the King
c. Spouse of the probable heir of the King
d. Children born from the marriage of the probable heir of the King.
e. Those listed in article 4. (see link above)

--

Articles (in Dutch) related to latest issues about the title for Máxima:
http://www.limburger.nl/article/20130215/ANPNIEUWS01/130219415/1030
http://www.refdag.nl/achtergrond/koninklijk-huis/rutte_geen_wet_nodig_voor_titel_maxima_1_715682
http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/02/15/deskundigen-in-nrc-maxima-kreeg-te-snel-titel-koningin/

Basically, experts are saying that the law states that the spouse of the King is Princess of the Netherlands.

--

However, I'm assuming the discussion here in the Netherlands is based on article 8, section 2, subsection a. In my opinion, It does NOT say that the spouse of the King can "ONLY" be a Princess of the Netherlands or that the spouse of the King can't become Queen. It only lists the spouse of the King/Queen as eligible to be created a Prince or Princess of the Netherlands.

Bear in mind, I did not study law! It's my opinion based on the above law.

 

[Artemisia]

I agree with your interpretation. To me, it sounds like the 2002 law states the King's spouse can be created Princess of the Netherlands in her own right (which Maxima already is). But it doesn't say she has to be one, or that it can be her only title.

 

[DukeOfAster]

I agree with your interpretation. To me, it sounds like the 2002 law states the King's spouse can be created Princess of the Netherlands in her own right. But it doesn't say she has to be one, or that it can be her only title.

it makes sense that she is a Princess in her own right because the day will come when she goes back to the title of a Princess and at that point she has been the wife of a king and has earned the title for herself. so instead of doing that then they give it to her as she is queen and she will be known by the higher title until she goes back to being a princess.