Germanic Ancestry of the House of Windsor

lord_rankin said:

While I would never consider the present Royal Family German it is interesting to note that Edward VIII was the first monarch since George I who did not speak the language. Kaiser Wilhelm II commented more than once about Queen Victoria and Edward VII ability to speak the language like natives.

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Well according to some sources, Victoria's first language was German as both her mother and governess/nurse was German. It makes sense that she would speak it so fluently.

afro1920 said:

Well according to some sources, Victoria's first language was German as both her mother and governess/nurse was German. It makes sense that she would speak it so fluently.

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Also when Victoria was small, the political union between Great Britain and Hanover was still very much alive. Only when she became Queen did the union between the two become broken as a woman couldn't inherit the Hanoverian throne.

There still were enough political ties between the two during George III's reign for Great Britain to send troops from the King's German lands to fight the American colonists in the American Revolution.

This is really interesting, but what about the ethnic aspect to it? I wonder what all their breakdowns are by ethnicty?

Ethnic? Germanic, Saxon, Anglo-Saxon. What ethnicity do you mean?

Reading through this thread, I have to confess to having a good laugh.

When we are in Scotland, it is so funny to see a big burly yorkshireman, dressed in a kilt, informing everyone that he is a scot, because his great great granny was a scot.

Whatever way you want to disguise it, the British Royal family do have German ancestry and I don't think it is something to be ashamed of!

Warren said:

Ethnic? Germanic, Saxon, Anglo-Saxon. What ethnicity do you mean?

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Well, yeah! I'm referring to all of the ethnicities that make up the RF. Like being French is a nationality but it doesn't explain like your ethnic makeup. Maybe I'm not explaining it correctly. But I know they've got Saxon, Angolo-Saxon and so on but aren't they part Slavic as well? If anyone has the details on that I would love to know.

If you trace the lines of descent back far enough you'll find ancestors from every corner of Europe, plus Constantinople.
For a selection of "exotic" ancestors, see this post.

Vita said:

This is really interesting, but what about the ethnic aspect to it? I wonder what all their breakdowns are by ethnicty?

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I believe being "German" is more a cultural thing than an ethnic one, as the German culture for centuries was like a roof over the numerous ethnical roots in the Middle of Europe. In all parts of the Holy Roman Empire of Germany people of Germanic descend lived together with local people and intermarried, so it's really impossible to say who is who because of what.

It's interesting that we take our word for our land and people (Deutschland and Deutsche) from a single Germanic tribe (The Teutons - via "Teutsche" zu today's "Deutsche") while the rest of the world views us a being "Germans" from the much larger ethnical group of the "Germanics" - who in the 400s at the "Voelkerwanderung" moved across Europe partly because the "Arians" (Indo-Germans or Huns) came up from India via Turkey and the Balkan (Hungary!) to settle here...

So, it's better not to discuss ethnic heritage when you talk about Germans but concentrate on the German culture which was open to anyone as long as schooling was affordable. It is a sad fact though that even the mulit-national Habsburgs considered their Hungarian branch as ethnically minor due to their foreign blood - when emperor Franz Joseph fell in love with an archduchess from the Hungarian branch of the family, he was sincerely discouraged to seek this marriage. And it could not have been the close relationship, as the alternative, princess Helene of Bavaria was his first cousin and much closer related... On meeting with Helene, Franz Joseph fell in love with her younger sister "Sisi" - Elisabeth and the rest is history....

I have just started studying this thread and have been wondering if anyone has used a good genealogy program to input all this data. I personally use the PAF put out by the LDS and find that it is excellent. There is room for additional titles, notes, sources, pictures etc. If you are dilligent about all data, dates, places etc, You end up with an easily understood record. It is imperative that you list all illigiment children and who the parents are. The program even can give you correct relationships.

Wonderful thread!
Beatrixfan, I applaud you for all your work!

I think one need to take into account the social aspects as well, if we look at the royal families in pre-WWI I think it's hard to strongly affiliate them with a specific nation - this did not say that they weren't British, German etc. but that there were a strong bond of class solidarity between the European royals that for some extent was stronger than the national bond to their respective nations.

Take for example WWI, millions of British soldiers perished and yet George V only bother to renounce his house German name and titles in 1917 (!) and even then its was probably due to seeing whats became of his Russian cousin. The German relatives of the BRF didn't see any problem with having British titles and fighting against Britain.

Or take another example, for centuries its was accepted that heirs only marry foreign royals, this pattern with BRF stopped after the war, the only heir that marry a foreign royal was Elizabeth II but her fiancée was forced to renounce all his titles and take his British relatives name.

My dear Tiberivs,

But this is what one does (renouncing German titles and names) when one is a constitutional monarch. George V was persuaded by his ministers to take this step and was convinced to order the removal of all German banners belonging to members of the Garter from St. George's Chapel. No doubt he may have taken these actions on his own but he followed through on the advice of his ministers. And one can hardly blame him, considering the strong anti-German sentiment which was running through Britain at the time.

I disagree, George V didn't have to wait for the advice of his ministers in order to renounce those titles, he could do this on his own and for his other actions (such as interfering in parliamentarian politics) he was no puppet and was capable of independent political action.

I'm always amused by this discussion. Because - does it really matter? Or even worse - this constant search for "bloodlines" is a very German thing to do: aren't we all (secretly or inmy case: openly) Germans? LOL....

But: The Queen's ancestry in regard to her right to sit on the English and Scottish throne is only important in one point: she is the most senior relative and was thus the heiress of the last king. And if you go up the line of kings and queens regnant you'll find that this principle has worked since William the Conqueror.

Even when the Georges came from Hanover: the British parliament had decided that the most senior relative was determined through two things: he must be the closest relative with protestant faith. Thus, George of Hanover (whose grandmother was the British princess Elizabeth Stuart) came on the throne.And today the throne is occupied by Elizabeth Windsor, who is the most senior descendant/relative of all kings and queens before her.

As for the foreign blood of the queen: that was mostly due to the British parliament in representation of the British people. After centuries of internal struggles between the in-laws of the British Royal brides, I believe all Lords were pretty happy with a marriage politic, that did not assign British duke's daughters the status of equality while a duke's daughter from Germany was considered an interesting marriage prospect. So in order to avoid internal struggles within Britian, the British Royal family kept to international and equal marriages and did not choose British brides till the 1900s. So where should the British blood come from?

As for being the most senior descendant/relative of all the kings and queens before her: Britain always had the possibility for women to ascend the throne. Most of Britains princesses married abroad, so chances were always good that when the male line ended, a foreign born prince or princess would inherit the throne. That was part of the principle of inheritance of the British throne.

And that's why Elizabeth Windsor sits on the throne today and not your all-British Severinus Applebottom from Little Prism near Netherhethelston in Cumbria. Or someplace else.

branchg said:

This is true. By marrying Lady Diana Spencer, Charles restored English (actually Stuart) blood to the British throne with the birth of his children. .

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This is something I have heard soo often and it is simply untrue. What is "Stuart"-blood? The queen is a direct line descendant in legitimate descent from Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots and her son James VI./I. of Scotland and England. What more Stuart-blood can one have? Stuart-blood can be inherited both from father's or mother's side, the seniority of a claim to the throne is evaluated through male primogeniture with female inheritance rights if the male line does not lead to descendants. Since 1701 the claimant needs to be of Anglican faith without Catholic ancestors.

Through Diana William is a direct descendent from Mary, Queen of Scots, her son James VI./I., her grandson Charles I.and her great-grandson Charles II. - but while Charles II. was legitimate, his child, Diana's ancestor, was not. So William through Diana is only a Stuart-descendent through an illegitimate line. Which counts nothing when it come to inheriting rights to a Stuart-throne. There are no legitimate descendants of Charles II.. After his death James II, his brother, inherited. There are no legitimate descendants from James II. There are legitimate descendants of Henrietta Ann, sister of Charles II. and James II. This line leads to Duke Francis of Bavaria as senior descendant. So only if Charles had married Sophie, Duchess of Bavaria, the eldest child of Duke Francis, William would be the most senior Stuart descendant through his mother. That would have required that the Duchess change her faith from Catholic to Anglican, so that her son could still be in the legitimate line since the 1701 Act of Settlement. Only then the most senior Stuart-line in general and the most senior line after the 1701 change of law would have been brought together in Charles and Sophie's son. Which did not happen.

To bring it back to the important point of Stuart-descent: The Act of settlement declared that all Stuart-descendants from a catholic line should loose their right to the British throne. Thus, the most senior Stuart descendant with Anglican faith is HM the Queen. The most senior Stuart descendant with Catholic faith is Francis of Bavaria, who is the most senior descendant independant of religious beliefs.

All Diana brought into the BRF was a bit of illegitimate Stuart blood and she was not a senior descendant, just one of the many descendants of Charles II. illegitimate offspring. In fact, the current Duke of Buccleuch is the most senior descendant of Charles II. from an illegitimate line, closely followed by the Duke of Grafton.

Tiberivs said:

I disagree, George V didn't have to wait for the advice of his ministers in order to renounce those titles, he could do this on his own and for his other actions (such as interfering in parliamentarian politics) he was no puppet and was capable of independent political action.

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My dear Tiberivs,

I am afraid I don't follow you. I thought you were criticizing George V for changing the name of the royal house and for removing the German banners from the chapel. But it seems that you are actually in favor of his action. Regardless, I meant to state in my response that George took action upon the advice of his ministers. He considered himself totally British but I don't think he disliked his German heritage or name of his royal house at the same time. I believe he and his ministers thought this would be a prudent step to take during the war against Germany. I have not read that George considered doing this on his own volition. If I am wrong, can you steer me in the right direction where I can read about this? Thanks so much.

By the way, George's mother was virulently anti-Prussian and thought it was right to remove the banners but not all the German banners, just those from the Prussian royals. So even the Danish princess/British Queen was not opposed to all things German and I don't believe her son was either.

Kataryn said:

...if Charles had married Sophie, Duchess of Bavaria, the eldest child of Duke Francis, William would be the most senior Stuart descendant...

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Two small corrections...
Duchess Sophie in Bavaria [now Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein] is the eldest daughter of Duke Franz's brother Max Emanuel, Duke in Bavaria.

Warren said:

Two small corrections...
Duchess Sophie in Bavaria [now Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein] is the eldest daughter of Duke Franz's brother Max Emanuel, Duke in Bavaria.

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You're right about the descent from Max, Warren. And Sophie is both Duchess in and Princess of Bavaria.

When Max Joseph of Pfalz-Birkenfeld-Bischweiler line of the House of Wittelsbach in 1799 inherited all lands of the Wittelsbachers, he brought his Palatinian relatives from the House of Wittelsbach, who were deposed by Napoleon, with him to Bavaria.These Palatinian Wittelsbachs had for centuries used the title of Duke in Bavaria, Count Palatine for the Head of the Palatinian line and Count/Countess Palatine for the members. Max Joseph created them all duke and duchess in Bavaria and added the style "HRH" for them. When this line was to die out in the male line, Max Emanuel was adopted and thus inherited the title of Duke in Bavaria from his childless cousin (inter-family adoptions are accepted in noble circles). So as a descendant from Ludwig III. in the direct line, Sophie was a Princess of Bavaria and due to her father, she was Duchess in Bavaria.

Sorry I mixed that up.

Skydragon said:

Whatever way you want to disguise it, the British Royal family do have German ancestry and I don't think it is something to be ashamed of!

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True,there is nothing to be ashamed of as you are who you are and you can't change it no matter how much you change your name,place where you live etc...

The fact is that Prince Charles has 3/4 % of German blood,while Lady Diana also has traces of German blood as a descendant of the Houses of Hanover and Nassau through illegitimate lines...

Apart from all the famous houses,she is also descendant of some smaller Germanic noble families such as von Kielmansegg,von Meysenburg-Zuschen,von Ahlefeldt,zu Rantzau,von Buchwaldt-Wensin,von der Wisch-Binebeck,von Brockdorff,von Hatten,von Runge,von Halle-Drankenburg-Rinteln,von dem Bussche and so on and on...

BeatrixFan said:

Philip - Well, his mother was Princess Alice - her mother was Russian and she was born in Russia - either that or her father was Russian and so was her mother - again, the 2/3 ratio was used. (I'm so bogged down in notes!) She was more Russian than German. Therefore, by maternal line, Philip is Russian. By Paternal Line he is Danish. By Jus Soli, he is Greek. But if his fathers nationality was determined by Jus Soli then he would be Greek!

I think Norwegianne, that you're right - I need to break each persons family tree down - I am going to go into more detail and it may take alot of time so I hope everyone will stick with the topic and join in!

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Philip isn't Russian through his mother. His father's mother was Grand Duchess Olga Constantinova of Russia, a granddaughter of Nicholas I.

BeatrixFan said:

A few of us have been discussing the heritage and nationality of the British Royal Family.

I've started to construct 'nationality' trees to try and solve the mystery altogether. The nationality of the RF depends very much on how you determine nationality. You have 3 choices;

1) Nationality of Father
2) Nationality of Mother
3) Place of Birth (Jus Soli)

The first tree I have constructed shows all 3 details.

The Nationality printed in BLUE shows the paternal nationality. The nationality printed in PINK shows the maternal nationality. And the nationality printed in GREEN shows the jus soli nationality.

To determine the nationality of a Monarch to work from, I used the method that if two nationalities appeared for the same person, i.e - German, British, German - that person was German with a 2/3 ratio. (Hey - I'm no scientist!)


In My Opinion, Nationality is determined by the Maternal Line.

I've stopped at Queen Victoria but I am going to go furthur - so the whole tree might change but I don't think it will.



So, what does it show?

Queen Victoria

Paternal - British​

Maternal - German
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - German


Edward VII

Paternal - German
Maternal - British
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - German​

George V

Paternal - British
Maternal - Danish
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - Danish​

Edward VIII

Paternal - British
Maternal - German
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - German​

George VI

Paternal - British
Maternal - German
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - German​

Elizabeth II

Paternal - British
Maternal - British
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - British ​

Charles (III?)

Paternal - Danish/Russian/Greek/German
Maternal - British
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - British​

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My Opinion Explained​

As I see it, Queen Elizabeth II is the first Monarch who could consider herself to be British. I base my opinion on the maternal nationality - her mother was British, therefore, Elizabeth is British. This means that Prince Charles is also British based on maternal nationality.​

As you can see, it isn't easy to determine at all. This is the line for Charles, Andrew, Edward and Anne only - I haven't looked into the Minor Royals (soon to follow) which may be a little bit more colorful. ​

Officially (and luckily for the British Royal Family), nationality is determined by jus soli. Therefore all Monarchs since Queen Victoria at least, have been British.​

What do you all think? ​

​

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Queen Mary's mother, Mary Adelaide wasn't German. She was a male-line granddaughter of George III, and her father was Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge. Mary Adelaide's mother, however, was German. Also, with this chart, the actual nationality of the parent must be established. Because although Prince Philip's father's ancestry was Danish/Russian, he himself was born in Greece. So, if one is to go by the country in which the people on the chart's parents were born in, Prince Philip is half Greek and half British, as his mother, Princess Alice was born in England at Windsor Castle.

Calum said:

Queen Mary's mother, Mary Adelaide wasn't German. She was a male-line granddaughter of George III, and her father was Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge. Mary Adelaide's mother, however, was German.

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Princess Mary Adelaide was very much German by blood ancestry...

Out of her 126 nearest ancestors,only 3 of them were not from German families and they were French: Count Eustache II de Croy-Roeulx, Alexandre Desmier d'Olbreuse and Jacquette Poussard de Vendre...

The rest of them all were from German families,no matter where they reigned or resided...

Calum said:

Also, with this chart, the actual nationality of the parent must be established. Because although Prince Philip's father's ancestry was Danish/Russian, he himself was born in Greece. So, if one is to go by the country in which the people on the chart's parents were born in, Prince Philip is half Greek and half British, as his mother, Princess Alice was born in England at Windsor Castle.

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If we speak about blood,his ancestry is also German,as both Greece and Denmark were ruled by the collateral branch of the German Oldenburg dynasty-line von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg,while Russia was ruled by other collateral branch of this same German Oldenburg dynasty-line von Holstein-Gottorp who inherited the throne from Romanovs in the 18th century...

And for centuries both these dynasties married Princesses from German families,just like Hanoverians did since they came from Germany to rule in Britain...

This thread is confusing me. Where your ancestors came from and your nationality are two separate things. My family came from Belgium, Italy and England in various waves to America. But I am an American born there and influenced there.

Take Prince William - the origin of some of his blood is German from the Hanovers and Philip's side. But he hasn't ever been to Germany that I can recall. He doesn't speak German. He doesn't root for Germany in sporting events. He is British.

If your not a native tribe, most of the people of a country came from somewhere else whether it was one generation ago or 100. The majority of the people assimilated to the language, culture and heritage of the their new country.

Skippyboo said:

This thread is confusing me. Where your ancestors came from and your nationality are two separate things. My family came from Belgium, Italy and England in various waves to America. But I am an American born there and influenced there.

Take Prince William - the origin of some of his blood is German from the Hanovers and Philip's side. But he hasn't ever been to Germany that I can recall. He doesn't speak German. He doesn't root for Germany in sporting events. He is British.

If your not a native tribe, most of the people of a country came from somewhere else whether it was one generation ago or 100. The majority of the people assimilated to the language, culture and heritage of the their new country.

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If your family came from Belgium, Italy and England to work in China where you would be born,for example,does that make you a Chinese even if you don't have a drop of Chinese blood?

The same goes for British royal family...they came from Germany,married Germans and still ruled in Britain...they are British as they hold British passports but their roots and ancestry is mostly German...and it's a fact,not something we create in our own minds...

How would you describe British monarchs prior to Queen Victoria...where they British or German,as they ruled both in the United Kingdom and the Kingdom of Hanover at the same time?

Well, if you would ask any German citizen what they think about the nationality of the Windsors, they would tell you that they are utterly and completely British. OK, Prince Philipp speaks very good German, so what. Many people speak foreign languages.

As a German person I can only see them as British, whatever their family roots.

Marc23 said:

If your family came from Belgium, Italy and England to work in China where you would be born,for example,does that make you a Chinese even if you don't have a drop of Chinese blood?

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I know people who were born in China, moved to the Netherlands and their kids were born in NL:, the kids consider themselves dutch..

I don't really "get" this thread...is it considered bad to have germanic ancestors?
Many royals have and until a hundred years ago, when a country needed a new king because the royal line had died out, the throne would be offered to a member of some other royal family (and not to a non-royal from the country itself). Since a lot of these families intermarried and where related they pretty much all had germanic blood...

My grandmother was born in England at Wimbledon and my great-grandparents were all also born in Britain but my parents and myself regard ourselves as 100% Australian.

Where a person is born and how a person regards themselves in this regard is also important and as the BRF regard themselves as British. Philip was the last one born overseas and even he had a mother born in England (Windsor Castle to be precise and you can't get much more English than that world renowned symbol of Britain and England than Windsor Castle).

He chose, as a young man, to be British due to ancestry and upbringing and that is therefore what he is. His wife, of course was born in the UK as were both her parents and all her grandparents. If she isn't English/British than I can't be an Aussie as I have fewer ancestors born in Australia than she has born in Britain back that far.

Lee-Z said:

I know people who were born in China, moved to the Netherlands and their kids were born in NL:, the kids consider themselves dutch..

I don't really "get" this thread...is it considered bad to have germanic ancestors?
Many royals have and until a hundred years ago, when a country needed a new king because the royal line had died out, the throne would be offered to a member of some other royal family (and not to a non-royal from the country itself). Since a lot of these families intermarried and where related they pretty much all had germanic blood...

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This is not a thread about how you consider yourself,I consider myself,but what you are...ancestry is not something determined by our will how to consider ourselves based on our life circumstances,but something that we are already born with...

For example,I am born in Belgrade(Serbia) and consider myself Serbian being bor and raised here,but my ancestry is Greek,Italian,Montenegrin,Croatian,Bosnian and only 1/16th Serbian... and my subjective feeling about how I consider myself based on my life circumstances won't change my ancestry as it is fact I am born with...

Queen Alexandra considered herself Danish from top to toe and hated Germans because of Schleswig-Holstein war,but in fact her ancestry was completely German without any drop of Danish blood...

Out of her nearest 126 ancestors,only 4 were not Germans and they were Esperance du Puy de Montbrun, Eleonore Elizabeth de la Cave, Eleonore Desmier d'Olbreuse and Catharina Francisca de Croy-Roeulx...Those 4 were French,but the rest(122 left) were Germans...and it is a known fact if you take a look at any genealogy chart...

So,subjective feeling about ourselves and genetic code we all have when we are born are two different things...and we discuss facts about royal ancestry without giving either good or bad opinion about it,just the way it is

As you say,one can change passport various times through life time and change opinion how to consider yourself depending on circumstances,but this is not something we can change as it is unchangeable,unlike the passport and subjective feeling about ourselves and how we personally feel...

Of course,I have never said it's either good or bad having Germanic ancestry,as this is a fact,not something I can share my opinion in order to create something differently :-/

By that logic then, what is the ancestry of the Germanic peoples? How far back do you take this? Those Germanic peoples would've originally come to Germany from elsewhere.

I'm no expert here, but are we not all descendants of homo erectus who originated in Africa a couple of million years ago?