Languages spoken by Nicholas, Alexandra and Family

[Anna was Franziska]

How did Dehn know that the rumor started at that moment?

Lili was there, we weren't, so we're going to have to assume she knew more than us and that is what happened. Yes I did say I believed the Bolsheviks in Ekaterinburg probably mistook English for German, because of Alix rep as the hated 'German woman/spy' and thinking any foreign language she spoke would be German. This theory was backed up by the fact that the same very thing had happend in the hospital in front of witnesses. I don't feel this is the same thing as making up a new chapter to the story of a hypothetical Russian-German soldier who never existed. Besides, and I know I can't prove this one way or the other, but just saying, I would say that Alix (who was never known to use German my those who knew her anyway) would have avoided German even more knowing the rumors about her, and the allegations she was on the German side of the war.

 

[ChatNoir]

Lili was there, we weren't, so we're going to have to assume she knew more than us and that is what happened.

Yes, she was. And still you have the audacity to write everyone else's testimonies off as "he said, she said" if they happen to disagree with you. A little consistency would be nice here.

Yes I did say I believed the Bolsheviks in Ekaterinburg probably mistook English for German, because of Alix rep as the hated 'German woman/spy' and thinking any foreign language she spoke would be German.

Again, you are forgetting that several of the bolsheviks were foreigners, some of them even German speaking. And Yurovsky himself spoke fluent German. Also, Avdayev was not a common soldier, he was the commandant in the Ipatiev House.

I would say that Alix (who was never known to use German my those who knew her anyway) would have avoided German even more knowing the rumors about her, and the allegations she was on the German side of the war.

And still she made sure her daughters had German lessons, she even helped them along.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Yes, she was. And still you have the audacity to write everyone else's testimonies off as "he said, she said" if they happen to disagree with you. A little consistency would be nice here.

I have already explained myself. I said because the mistake on the languages happened in the hospital it likely could have happened again. This is very different than inventing a hypothetical character and incident that did not take place. When you look at this whole thing, and everything about the family, technically everything is 'he said she said' and I guess it all comes down to whom you choose to believe and whom you choose to call 'liar.' However when Dehn wrote that book, she had no idea of any reason to lie about the story, so she told what she saw and heard. Also you can't even say Lili was lying to defame AA since she turned out years later to be an AA supporter!

Again, you are forgetting that several of the bolsheviks were foreigners, some of them even German speaking.

No there weren't any German Bolsheviks! And the soldiers in St. Petersburg who mistook English for German had been on the battlefield fighting German soldiers, and maybe alongside British ones, yet they still were unable to distinguish English from German.

And Yurovsky himself spoke fluent German. Also, Avdayev was not a common soldier, he was the commandant in the Ipatiev House.

And yet they still had to take the letters to the official in town for translations.

And still she made sure her daughters had German lessons, she even helped them along.

It's never written anywhere that Alix in particuluar 'made sure' they took German. For someone who was allegedly stressing German,the kids sure never learned it! German was a common part of the upper class aristocracy cirriculum to learn certain languages, regardless of who their parents were. Dagmar, whose parents hated Germany, still took German lessons. It's only mentioned once that Alix gave Tatiana alone a German lesson. You make so much of this. What is so important to you? Chat it's very, very obvious you are only obsessed with grabbing at anything to try to embellish the knowledge the girls had of German because of AA. This has become quite ridiculous. How many times must be go in circles battling the same old quotes?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I would like to make an announcement with bear's permission. She has apologized for the posts where she said me and Anastasia Evidence were the same person, she knows better and has had the honor to admit she was wrong. Thanks, Bear. I am posting this not to humiliate her, but to let anyone who may have read her posts before they were deleted to know for sure it wasn't true. AE is a different person and has many online friends who can vouch for her. She runs her own forum and has beautiful sites she's made devoted to OTMA. Just because we happen to share the same views on many things does not mean we are the same person, we're not. AE is a very nice person and has posted many excellent things and knowledgeable pieces of info. She deserves to be respected for herself and not be called me.

 

[ChatNoir]

Also you can't even say Lili was lying to defame AA since she turned out years later to be an AA supporter!

What on earth does AA have to do with this?

No there weren't any German Bolsheviks!

Several of the guards in the Ipatiev House were Austrian or from the Baltics. Don't tell me they did not know German.

And yet they still had to take the letters to the official in town for translations.

Not reading a language does not in any way mean that you cannot identify it.

It's never written anywhere that Alix in particuluar 'made sure' they took German. For someone who was allegedly stressing German,the kids sure never learned it!

Then how do you explain Tatiana's letter in German?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I am honestly tired of going around in circles in this thread while well known and unrepentant AA supporters Russo, Ferrymans and Chat continue to push some alleged knowledge of German Anastasia had when evidence contradicts it, just to hold onto hope that AA was AN because AA used German. I'm sorry, but I can no longer participate seriously in this thread knowing that is the main sticking point and goal here, regardless of denials, which are like trying to tell me the sky isn't blue. I still maintain that the girls were exposed to German through lessons, the older more than the younger ones, but it was not used in the family like Russian, English and French, and that they never actually learned it on a functional basis, did not speak it or use it.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

This is about an exhibit which was introduced as evidence (you must have seen such things on Perry Mason) and has nothing to do with anyone lying or not. Unless you are saying that Berenberg Gossler was lying when he accepted in court that the schoolbooks showed that AN studied German? Surely not, since you normally extol the veracity of his statements as if your life depended on them.

I only stick with Olga Alexandrovna, Gilliard, Gibbes, Lili Dehn and Sophie books. Those accounts are most important because they are witnesses and know what OTMA studied and did during their lives.

Then why can't you tell the difference? You also seem confused as to what is considered hearsay so here is a link to a legal dictionary. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Heresay Exhibits introduced as evidence are NOT hearsay.

You and AWF are both refusing to accept that the Court Records show that GD Anastasia's schoolbooks were presented in evidence during the trials. You are also refusing to accept that BOTH sides were happy to accept their provenance. You similarly refuse to accept that the books show she studied German. As all of this is in the court records which have to be confirmed by both sets of lawyers and the judges, it is up to you two to PROVE that those records are inaccurate, not for us to prove that they are accurate. Or are you saying that all the lawyers and the various sets of judges were lying?

The difference between a FACT and an OPINION! Hearsay is not evidence at all, it's accounts that have not been proven true. It is also something that has yet to have been backed up by evidence and it's pure speculation. A fact: is defined as something that is true, something that actually exists, or something having objective reality that can be verified according to an established standard of evaluation.
An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something which it is either impossible to verify the truth of, or the truth of which is thought unimportant to the person.

It has been said that Chat and I only press this point because we are trying to show that AA was AN. (I won't even bother to point out that it is AWF who keeps dragging AA into this debate - or indeed just about every debate.) How about we are pressing it because it is a FACT, regardless of who AA was. In fact her identity could be considered irrelevant. You are trying to twist the facts because they may (and it is only "may", not "do" since as I have said AA's identity actually could be considered of no relevance to this point) contradict your theory. It is like saying night is day or black is white. AE, you can say until you are blue in the face that there is no proof Anastasia had any German lessons but the facts patently contradict you.

It's actually you, Bear and ChatNoir who are trying to bring up AA again. Ferrymansdaughter, you started discussing about AA when you mentioned the German court trials. In all of my resources I NEVER mentioned AA because she had NOTHING to do with the life of the Romanovs. I never would get any resources from her. Well, when you mentioned AA, it seems to me like you're trying to prove that she is Anastasia. There wouldn't be any other reason why you're mentioning AA in the discussion about Anastasia knowing German.

I have to say I wonder why you get so het up and fly in the face of the obvious which is actually rather ridiculous. If you are so confident you are right, why can't you say "yes AN did study German but it doesn't mean she and AA were the same person."?

You're trying to make me believe in something that is not even true. Anastasia's own relatives and tutors stated that Anastasia did not study German. I would never accuse those people of being liars because they are the ones who told the whole accounts and truths of the imperial family. That would be very wrong and false to disrespect these people.

 

[ChatNoir]

I still maintain that the girls were exposed to German through lessons, the older more than the younger ones, but it was not used in the family like Russian, English and French, and that they never actually learned it on a functional basis, did not speak it or use it.

Then, again, how do you explain Tatiana's letter? And the testimony from the people who said that "they spoke it badly"?

 

[Marengo]

Closed for moderator review, unsurprisingly.

 

[Warren]

This thread will remain closed.

Things have become too weird even by Russian Forum standards and we are now in the red zone: public and private accusations that certain members are one and the same, members in cheer squad mode posting on behalf of other members (aren't they capable of posting themselves?), and a continuation of the same tired and boring argumentative posting style that we endured for far too long in the Anna Anderson was/was not Anastasia thread.

We understand this "debate", for want of a better word, has been waged over several internet sites and forums for some time, but after a year of hosting it here at TRF it's wearing a bit thin.

Warren
TRF Administrator