Charles and Camilla - The Early Years (1970s)


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I have always gotten the impression from biographies, that Charles was somewhat smitten with Camilla because she was not impressed with his title. Camilla may have seen Charles solely as a friend and some one to make Andrew Parker-Bowles jealous. She was very focused on getting Parker-Bowles down the aisle. Also as the years went by, Charles came to see Camilla as "the one who got away" - but at the time, he was being pressured to consider other women as possible bride and to sow his wild oats. For Camilla, I think she finally realized that Andrew was a serial cheater. As some point they got together, but the extent of their relationship prior to Charles marriage will never be completely known. (As his diaries will not be published in our lifetime) And as for when their relationship resumed, we have only Diana's perspective.
 
We also have what Charles told Dimbleby - that he didn't go back to Camilla until his marriage had irretrievably broken down, although I don't remember if any actual dates were mentioned.
 
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Elspeth said:
We also have what Charles told Dimbleby - that he didn't go back to Camilla until his marriage had irretrievably broken down, although I don't remember if any actual dates were mentioned.
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I cannot recall any fixed dates as well, only dec. 18th 1989 comes to mind when the "Camillagate"-phonecall was recorded. As Squidygate was around the same time and considering both talks I think that this hints at Charles having been honest when he said that his marriage had broken down before he started his affair with Camilla.
 
COUNTESS said:
Mostly it was boy met girl, boy went to sow his "wild oats, girl married another. Boy and girl got together after a period of time passed and continued their relationship. Boy was "forced" to marry proper girl. He did thus. Boy expected to continue doing whatever he pleased. Boy was a Prince. Wife created havoc when finding boy had another girl. Life became untenable. Boy and wife divorced. Wife is killed. Boy decided if he was a prince he could do anything and demanded to marry girl. It didn't much matter as they had two "pure" heirs. And, boy and girl lived happily ever after.
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I would put it a bit differently: Boy and wife divorce. Boy introduces girl as his new partner. Wife is killed. Girl takes backseat again (because of the public opinion or because of the mourning sons? I have my own opinion about that...). Boy decides that even though he is a prince he has a right to love and be open about it. Boy marries girl and lives happily ever after with her. :flowers:
 
Skydragon said:
MARRIAGES, DIVORCES, SCANDALS . . . THE ROCKY ROAD TO THE AISLE | Sunday Herald, The | Find Articles at BNET.com
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Two things where I wonder how they got this information from and if it is reliable?

"1986 In this year, at the latest, Charles renews his affair with Camilla. Royal couple are soon leading separate private lives."

And:

1999 Camilla meets Prince William and Prince Harry for the first time.

I would have thought with the Parker Bowles being long-term friends of prince Charles that Camilla has known the little princes from the beginning. Especially as Camilla seem to have a knack with kids? It has been said that Andrew and Camilla were invited often to Highgrove when Charles and Diana were there at the weekends. Where were William and Harry back then? Somehow I don't see either Diana or Camilla as persons who accept that children stay in the nursery when the parents entertain guests and I don't see Charles as the kind of father who does not take his kids on a stroll around the garden with his guests.
 
Jo of Palatine said:
Thank you very much Skydragon for finding these timelines. Here it says:

"1986 According to Charles's official biographer, Jonathan Dimbleby, Charles begins an affair with Camilla."

My question: Where does Dimbleby says that?
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I'll get shot if I challenge it. IMO, this was the date agreed upon to protect Diana from questions over the paternity of her son Harry.
battle101.gif


Prince Charles's aides plotted against Diana

Prince Charles biography
 
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Jo of Palatine said:
I would put it a bit differently: Boy and wife divorce. Boy introduces girl as his new partner. Wife is killed. Girl takes backseat again (because of the public opinion or because of the mourning sons? I have my own opinion about that...). Boy decides that even though he is a prince he has a right to love and be open about it. Boy marries girl and lives happily ever after with her. :flowers:
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IMO, your 'version' is more accurate. :flowers:
 
Skydragon said:
Prince Charles biography
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]From Dimbleby (page 394 ff. from the Little, Brown & Company hardcover edition):

As the Prince wrote in November 1986:
Frequently I feel nowadays that I'm in a kind of cage, pacing up and down it and longing to be free.... I fear I'm going to need a bit of help now and then for which I feel rather ashamed. All I want to do is help other people..."

He began to turn once again to his friends, bringing back into his life those whom he had expelled at his wife's behest..." (...)

"Among those to whom he turned was Camilla Parker Bowles, with whom he began to re-establish the intimacy of their former friendship. Following his engement to the Princess in february 1981, the Prince had virtually no contact with Camilla Parker Bowles for over five years. Apart from one occassion before the wedding, when he gave her the "farewell" bracelet, her saw her only fleetingly at occasional social gatherings. (...)

Until he reached the point of desperation, when, as he would later confine himself to saying in public, his marriage had "irretrievably broken down", he had been loyal to his wife and faithful to his marriage vows. Now, in the search of support, he once again began to talk to her on the telephone and they started to see each other at Highgrove; she usually came with either her husband or some of the prince's other close friends, and the opportunities to be alone with each other for any length of time were infrequent. That they loved each other was not in any doubt: in Camilla Parker Bowles the prince found the warmth, the understanding and the steadiness for which he had always longed and had never been able to find with any other person.

Their relationship- about which the tabloids soon began to speculate with such incontinence - was later to be portrayed merely as a tawdry affair: for the Prince, however, it was a vital source of strength to a man who had been saddened beyond words by a failure for which he invariably blamed himself. "I never thought it would end up like this", he wrote. "how could I have got it all so wrong?"

End of quote from Dimbleby.

For me this is all I need to know about their love "affair". :flowers:

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Jo of Palatine said:
Two things where I wonder how they got this information from and if it is reliable?

"1986 In this year, at the latest, Charles renews his affair with Camilla. Royal couple are soon leading separate private lives."

And:

1999 Camilla meets Prince William and Prince Harry for the first time.

I would have thought with the Parker Bowles being long-term friends of prince Charles that Camilla has known the little princes from the beginning. Especially as Camilla seem to have a knack with kids? It has been said that Andrew and Camilla were invited often to Highgrove when Charles and Diana were there at the weekends. Where were William and Harry back then? Somehow I don't see either Diana or Camilla as persons who accept that children stay in the nursery when the parents entertain guests and I don't see Charles as the kind of father who does not take his kids on a stroll around the garden with his guests.
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I had a look at the Dimbleby book, and it doesn't specifically say that Charles went back to Camilla in 1986; however, it does trace things chronologically, and the comment about going back to Camilla was made during the 1986 part of the timeline. I'm not sure how much this date also depends on Diana telling Martin Bashir about Charles going back to his lady, but 1986 does seem to fit the bill.

As for the other, I also thought it was a bit strange that Camilla hadn't met Charles's sons before, but there was a fair bit of publicity attached to her alleged first meeting with William some years after Diana's death. I don't know how they were defining "meeting" or how much they were trying to avoid the implication that Charles had been previously meeting his lover in the presence of his young children (something that made Fergie very unpopular) or what the story was, but I do remember reports of this meeting.
 
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I have read the comments with interest but I am confused about this thread. Agatha seemed to want to focus on the nature of the original "love story"-Charles and Camilla/ Fred and Gladys pre Prince Charles wedding. However, it seems like so many other discussions, we keep going back to the eternal triangle-which only gets people upset.

This is all IMO based on my reading of Dimblebly, Wilson, Bradford (sp) and Brown, and many articles.
1. I think they were in love with each other in the 70's and maybe a little earlier.
2. I think that Camilla was told directly and indirectly (without Charles knowledge) that there was no chance for anything long term.
3. I think she settled with APB for a variety of reasons and like most of us who settle was quickly disappointed--which leads to
4. A rekindled deep relationship with Charles (sexual or not) that did not end even when he married.
 
Elspeth said:
I had a look at the Dimbleby book, and it doesn't specifically say that Charles went back to Camilla in 1986; however, it does trace things chronologically, and the comment about going back to Camilla was made during the 1986 part of the timeline. I'm not sure how much this date also depends on Diana telling Martin Bashir about Charles going back to his lady, but 1986 does seem to fit the bill.

As for the other, I also thought it was a bit strange that Camilla hadn't met Charles's sons before, but there was a fair bit of publicity attached to her alleged first meeting with William some years after Diana's death. I don't know how they were defining "meeting" or how much they were trying to avoid the implication that Charles had been previously meeting his lover in the presence of his young children (something that made Fergie very unpopular) or what the story was, but I do remember reports of this meeting.
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Yes the late 1986/early 1987 dating for the rekindling of the Charles/Camilla relationship was confirmed by Wendy Berry, the Highgrove housekeeper (Autumn 1985-1993) who stated in her memoirs (published outside UK) that the Prince started to visit Camilla on Sunday evenings from Highgrove sometime between Xmas 1986 and early 1987. She also stated that Camilla never visited Highgrove when the boys were there as they were strictly kept under Diana's control. Indeed she also stated that from about 1988/89 onwards Diana denied Charles the enjoyment of reading bed-time stories to his sons by dint of screaming hysterically anytime he went near the boys nursery, which was off Diana's bedroom. Charles had to say goodnight over the internal tannoy system instead.
As Dimbleby pointed out it was this denial of access to his own sons that led Charles to divorce Diana (not his relationship with Camilla) because Charles's then PRivate Secretary (Richard Aylard, himself a divorced man) pointed out that as a divorced man you have legally enforceable rights of access to your children, as a miserably married man to a hysterical woman you don't.
 
BellaFay said:
. . . . . it was this denial of access to his own sons that led Charles to divorce Diana (not his relationship with Camilla) because Charles's then PRivate Secretary (Richard Aylard, himself a divorced man) pointed out that as a divorced man you have legally enforceable rights of access to your children, as a miserably married man to a hysterical woman you don't.
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Wow, that is a harsh and bitter inditement of the state of the "marriage", and yet somehow it rings true.

If the marriage was to end in divorce I think that that would do it far sooner than Charles relationship with Camilla. She loved him and wanted nothing to come between him and his children and seemed content with the status quo.
 
I agree with you MARG. Still, it's always a nightmare to keep your position unbiased with your children when your couple is overwhelmed with hatred as it seems to be between Charles and Diana.
 
Some people are able to keep overt displays of anger stemming from their marriage breakup away from their children. It appears Charles endeavoured to keep away from the nastiness of his marriage when he was dealing with his children. I suspect that in Denmark, the breakup between Joachim and Alexandra was far more traumatic and filled with anger against the other than anyone imagined at times but their main focus seemed to always make sure their children weren't impacted by it. I know other examples from my personal experience.
 
Yes, I also have some examples in my life. Although, the damaged caused to children can be terrible whether or not the parents are famous, I believe it's even more difficult to spare your kids when you're in the limelight.
 
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IMO, Charles and Diana were advised to divorce after the terrible Panorama interview in Dec 1995, it was reported that HM had written to them both advising them to seek a divorce at the earliest opportunity. They had been officially separated since 1992. I do find it hard to believe that the nursery or boys bedroom would have been off Diana's bedroom, that would have made it very difficult for the nanny to tend them.
 
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That's also my belief, Skydragon. But I have no doubt that some of Diana or Charles's close friends had advised her/him to divorce. In such a position, both couldn't do much, even if they really wanted to divorce (whoch was not Diana's case). Friends are usually the ones to have a more objective view on things happening. As good friends, they were probably there during the toughest times and I'm sure divorce was for most of them the right solution to appease the two person in the couple.
 
TheTruth said:
Yes, I also have some examples in my life. Although, the damaged caused to children can be terrible whether or not the parents are famous, I believe it's even more difficult to spare your kids when you're in the limelight.
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Well Charles was able to do it and so were Joachim and Alexandra as far as I know. :confused: I don't think they are too exceptional.
 
Yes, I completely agree on that. But they have to face the tabloids and medias. I'm not defending anyone here at all. For example, when William got hurt at school and both parents went to the hospital, Charles was painted as the bad father who went on with his PoW obligations and didn't stay by his side. That's what I'm talking about.:flowers:
 
I meant to actually post about C&C's early relationship, here. :blush:

Actually I am beginning to believe the marriage breakdown of APB and Camilla was very influential in what happened later. Tina Brown mentioned it and so did some others. The key was that APB was an incredible ladies man and its hard to APB as Camilla's consolation prize if she couldn't get Charles.

The most logical sequence to me is this:
  1. Charles and Camilla date, they may or may not fall in love but they remain friends nonetheless.
  2. Charles has to go to the Navy.
  3. Camilla who is still very good looking at this stage and known for liking a bit of fun starts dating the dashing and handsome APB.
  4. Camilla and APB finally marry.
  5. APB knows how to charm women off his feet and he does but his problem is that he charms too many even when he is married.
  6. Camilla, distraught, turns to her friends. One of her friends, fresh back from the Navy, is Charles.
  7. Charles has his own problems, one of which was that his favorite uncle, Louis Mountbatten was killed by an IRA bomb.
  8. Camilla because of her own problems stays friendly but is not emotionally available to Charles. Besides, Charles' pain is a different type of pain than hers.
  9. However, young Lady Diana, is emotionally available to him and she worships him.
  10. Charles, pushed and prodded by his family, marries Diana.
  11. Charles and Diana start having trouble. Charles turns to his friends for support. Camilla is one of his friends.
  12. This time Charles and Camilla share the same pain of a bad marriage. And they are able to comfort each other.
  13. At some point they realize they get better comfort and support from each other than they get from the people they married.
  14. Diana, distraught that Charles has turned away from her, starts looking for someone to comfort and support her. She finds temporary comfort and support from James Hewitt but that goes away. The only loyal companions she has are her friends from the press. At that point she decides to end it all for everybody.
  15. The War of the Wales begins.
 
TheTruth said:
Yes, I completely agree on that. But they have to face the tabloids and medias. I'm not defending anyone here at all. For example, when William got hurt at school and both parents went to the hospital, Charles was painted as the bad father who went on with his PoW obligations and didn't stay by his side. That's what I'm talking about.:flowers:
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OK, now I think understand you. Thanks for explaining. Yes, famous people don't have direct control over what the press say about them.
 
Pretty good summary. Looks quite simple when it's written but it sounded far less for them at that time.:rolleyes:
 
ysbel said:
SHORTENED POST - The most logical sequence to me is this:
  1. Charles and Camilla date, they may or may not fall in love but they remain friends nonetheless.
  2. Charles has to go to the Navy.
  3. Camilla who is still very good looking at this stage and known for liking a bit of fun starts dating the dashing and handsome APB.
  4. Camilla and APB finally marry.
  5. APB knows how to charm women off his feet and he does but his problem is that he charms too many even when he is married.
  6. Camilla, distraught, turns to her friends. One of her friends, fresh back from the Navy, is Charles.
  7. Charles has his own problems, one of which was that his favorite uncle, Louis Mountbatten was killed by an IRA bomb.
  8. Camilla because of her own problems stays friendly but is not emotionally available to Charles. Besides, Charles' pain is a different type of pain than hers.
  9. However, young Lady Diana, is emotionally available to him and she worships him.
  10. Charles, pushed and prodded by his family, marries Diana.
  11. Charles and Diana start having trouble. Charles turns to his friends for support. Camilla is one of his friends.
  12. This time Charles and Camilla share the same pain of a bad marriage. And they are able to comfort each other.
  13. At some point they realize they get better comfort and support from each other than they get from the people they married.
  14. Diana, distraught that Charles has turned away from her, starts looking for someone to comfort and support her. She finds temporary comfort and support from James Hewitt but that goes away. The only loyal companions she has are her friends from the press. At that point she decides to end it all for everybody.
  15. The War of the Wales begins.
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Beautifully put! :flowers:
 
Agatha...

Your grandmother is correct. She was never considered wife material because of her 'past.' Of course, the version we read about today is that Charles 'missed the boat' and she married APB.
 
Well, I think there's something missing between numbers 10 and 11. That being Camilla's presence in the marriage from day one. How would any of us feel if a picture of a husband's 'former' girlfriend came along on our honeymoon? Hmmm...
 
Monika_ said:
She was never considered wife material because of her 'past.' .
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That is the whole point, by whom?:flowers:
Monika_ said:
Well, I think there's something missing between numbers 10 and 11. That being Camilla's presence in the marriage from day one. How would any of us feel if a picture of a husband's 'former' girlfriend came along on our honeymoon? Hmmm...
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Camilla's presence from day one is only according to Diana. Even the story of the cufflinks was distorted, the C&C did not stand for Charles & Camilla.
 
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From what I've read, Lord Mountbatten encouraged Charles to have fun, but pick a good one for keeps. Camilla fell into the fun category. Also, just think about it from a common sense point of view... Do you recall when Charles and Diana got engaged, and all the fuss made over her 'eligibility,' etc? THAT was in 1981...now imagine how Camilla would have done in the early 70's. Sorry, don't think so.

As for the bracelet, personally, I don't care what the initials stand for or what they are, the point is most women would not take kindly to our husband to be giving a 'former' GF a gift of jewelry. Jewelry is a very personal gift, especially under these circumstances (if it had initials, etc). That says something...

Oops, and one more point. If Camilla didn't intend to maintain a presence in Charles' life, why was she so keen to befriend Diana, ask her whether she planned to hunt, etc. Hmmm... Sorry, she knew what she was doing all along.
 
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