Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[summrbrew2]

why are the british royals given lower titles when they marry?

 

[Alexandria]

Hi summrbrew2!

What do you mean that British royals are given lower titles when they marry?

As far as I can understand, they are still princes or princesses when they marry, though many of them also receive dukedoms (word?) or other titles that follow their name. For example, when Prince Edward married Sophie Rhys-Jones, he became Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex (and will one day take up his father's title Duke of Edinburgh), thereby also making Sophie Countess of Wessex.

Charles has always been the Prince of Wales, before and after his marriage to Diana. And Andrew has always been the Duke of York. Princess Anne chose no titles for her children.

Princess Margaret's son is Viscount Linley (and his wife Serena Vicountess Linley). His son Charles will one day inherit his father's title. But I don't think Charles' sister Margarita will receive any title as titles are passed on through the male lineage. Princess Margaret's daughter is Lady Sarah Chatto with no titles for her husband or either of her sons, because again of the male lineage.

As for the rest of the family, the Queen has been trying to decrease the size of the monarchy, espescially those supported by the civil list. I think even Prince Andrew's daughters Beatrice and Eugenie will no longer be referred to as Princesses when they reach the age of 18. (I'm a bit fuzzy on this one, however.) They will however most certainly not receive any titles from the reigning monarch. But had Prince Andrew had a son, his son would've carried on the title of Duke of York.

Whew! That was a long winded explanation! I hope it was what you were looking for!

Alexandria

 

[summrbrew2]

thanks for the explanation. i got confused because i figured that when sophie married edward she would be a princess, but shes only a countess. i didnt know that the men kept thier origonal titles as well.

 

[samitude]

Prince Andrew received the title Duke of York upon his wedding day I believe. I don't think he's had this title since he was a baby.

Also, Viscount Linley's daughter is referred to as the Honorable Margarita Armstrong-Jones. Her brother Patrick is the Honorable Charles Armstrong-Jones and will become Viscount Linley when his father gains the title Earl of Snowdon which will be upon the present Earl of Snowdon's death. At least that's the way I understand this.

I believe Sophie didn't want the title of princess. She would have received it by marrying Edward, but asked not to.

 

[Alexandria]

Hi Samitude!

Yes, I forgot about Margarita being an Honorable Margarita ...

And I do recall now that Sophie did not want to be Princess Sophie, just as the Earl and Countess of Wessex have asked that their children receive no titles either.

All this makes me ask: Why did Princess Michael of Kent take on that title rather than being Princess Marie-Christine (is that her name?) of Kent?

 

[samitude]

I don't know. You should post that on the European Royals message board. They would know.

 

[Mandy]

Hi everyone,

Sarah upon her marriage to Andrew became Princess Andrew. The Queen also gave them the title of Duke & Duchess of York.

The same rules applied in Sophie's case. She became Princess Edward. The Queen also gave them the title of Earl & Countess of Wessex.

Princess Michael of Kent, wife of Prince Michael, remained as such because they received no other title.

 

[summrbrew2]

ok, so now i think my question has changed. why do they use their duke and duchess or count and countess titles over their prince and princess ones?

 

[Josefine]

Originally posted by summrbrew2@Apr 12th, 2003 - 5:39 pm
ok, so now i think my question has changed. why do they use their duke and duchess or count and countess titles over their prince and princess ones?

Im bumping Up this thread


I hope someone can help you out

 

[sara1981]

i understand!

i know someone have title because Prince Edward and Sophie got married in June 1999 she not become Princess both decided becomes Earl and Countess of Wessex.

When Prince Charles and Princess Diana got married summer 1981 when Diana got title! when Wills and Harry become title when both was born still title even!

I had no idea Princess Anne's kid cant become title when she got married to first husband in 1973 but she have choose!

And also Duke of York's girls have title when both was born still have title till 18 someone said that! maybe reach to 18 year old!

Sara Boyce

 

[A.C.C.]

Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie will not loose their titles when they become 18. Titles are not taken away from you. Even Princess Diana and Sarah, Duchess of York did not loose their titles. They loss the right to HRH and I believe that is the only thing that can be taken from you. Beatrice and Eugenie are the grandchildren of the monarch through the male line and they are entitled to be Princesses and HRH's. On the Sophie thing, just because she is not called Princess, her chlidren could be a prince or princess because their father is Prince Edward and they are a grandchild of the monarch through the male line, this is why Pincess Anne's children don't have titles, though they wouldn't be a prince and princess anyway because they are grandchildren of the monarch through the female line. Zara would be a lady and Peter would probably be a Viscount. The Queen is trying to streamline the royal family, not by eliminating titles of current members, but be lessening the titles and styles of future members. This is why Prince Edward and Sophie's child will probably not be a Prince or Princess even though they are still to this day entitled to that right and the right of being a HRH because the Queen has not issued a letters patent. Also, if the Queen was going to take tiltles away, or streamline them, it would definitely start with the lesser royals, not her own grandchildren.

 

[sara1981]

I read someone said Prince Edward and Sophie's report said both not wanted to be title for their first child! so if Her Majesty would allow to have title for Queen's grandchild if Prince Edward and his wife will have right choice because Sophie is busniess former!

and also Princess Anne's child is no title also i knew it! that aint fair!

Sara Boyce

 

[A.C.C.]

Well, it was Princess Anne and Mark Philips choice for him not to have a title, therefore, the children do not have titles. I read that Zara is very upset that she doesn't have a title or style while all of her cousins do. I also read in a British Newspaper that Edward and Sophie actually want their first child to be a prince or princess, HRH and everything, but who knows what will happen. Maybe their child will be prince or princess and HRH, or maybe it will just be a viscount or a lady, know one really knows because a letters patent has not been issued by the Queen stipulating that the child of the Earl and Countess of Wessex will not be a prince or princess. Yet I must say, if they think just because their child is not a prince or princess they won't get as much press attention, they are fooling themselves. Just look at Zara!!!

 

[Splodger]

The word Prince/Princess is not just a title it is also a style of address and rank of nobility. This is all so confusing that not even King George VI realised that when he gave Phillp, the Duke of Edingbourgh the stlye of HRH, this did not give him the title and style of Prince.

Although in the United Kingdom the only people to be called 'Prince' are members of the Snr Royal Family, the rank of Prince is actualy of less status than that of Duke. Therefore Prince Andrew was 'promoted' to Duke of York. However in the United Kingdom the word Prince is also a style as it is exclusive to Royalty. Therefore the Duke of York is still also known as Prince Andrew. Therefore, Beatrix and Euginie are not just Princesses of Great Brtiain they are Princesses of the Dukedom of York. Charles is HRH Prince Charles, the Prince of Wales. His sons are thus HRH Prince William of Wales, Prince of the United Kingdom and HRH Prince Henry of Wales, Prince of the United Kingdom etc etc.

The main confusion is caused because the Nobility system in the United Kingdom is smaller and 'tidyer' than the continant where the Nobility System is far more extensive. In the UK many titles have been dropped completly.

 

[A.C.C.]

So if Edward and Sophie's new baby remains a princess, she will be known as Princess X of Wessex??? Or if a letters patent is issued, will she be known as Lady X of Wessex???

 

[Alexandria]

Originally posted by A.C.C.@Nov 22nd, 2003 - 6:58 pm
So if Edward and Sophie's new baby remains a princess, she will be known as Princess X of Wessex??? Or if a letters patent is issued, will she be known as Lady X of Wessex???

Yes, I believe that will be so. Just as William and Harry are Princes William and Harry of Windsor. (Or in school William simply went by William Windsor, dropping the 'of.') And Andrew's daughters are Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie of York. The titles tend to act as last names for the Queen's children in situations where appropriate.

I have a question from this: If William and Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie and now the Wessex baby are simply [First Name] of [Windsor/York/Wessex], does that mean that the Queen's cousins who have titles also use this same "system?" Like do Prince Michael of Kent's children go by Lord Frederick of Kent and Lady Gabriella of Kent? Or are they Lord Frederick Windsor and Lady Gabrilla Windsor? And the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester's kids? Lady Rose and Davina of Gloucester or Lady Rose and Davina Windsor. (I believe their son is the Earl of Ulster, so a different situation altogether.)

 

[A.C.C.]

Gabriella and Frederick are known as Lady Gabriella Windsor and Lord Frederick Windsor. The same goes for the gloucester girls.

 

[sara1981]

Originally posted by Alexandria+Nov 22nd, 2003 - 7:23 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Alexandria @ Nov 22nd, 2003 - 7:23 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-A.C.C.@Nov 22nd, 2003 - 6:58 pm
So if Edward and Sophie's new baby remains a princess, she will be known as Princess X of Wessex???  Or if a letters patent is issued, will she be known as Lady X of Wessex???

Yes, I believe that will be so. Just as William and Harry are Princes William and Harry of Windsor. (Or in school William simply went by William Windsor, dropping the 'of.') And Andrew's daughters are Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie of York. The titles tend to act as last names for the Queen's children in situations where appropriate.

I have a question from this: If William and Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie and now the Wessex baby are simply [First Name] of [Windsor/York/Wessex], does that mean that the Queen's cousins who have titles also use this same "system?" Like do Prince Michael of Kent's children go by Lord Frederick of Kent and Lady Gabriella of Kent? Or are they Lord Frederick Windsor and Lady Gabrilla Windsor? And the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester's kids? Lady Rose and Davina of Gloucester or Lady Rose and Davina Windsor. (I believe their son is the Earl of Ulster, so a different situation altogether.) [/b][/quote]
you know that Prince William and Harry both is Wales not Windsor!

Sara Boyce

 

[Splodger]

Sophe and Edwards daughter will be Lady X Mountbatten-Windsor.

Quick Glossery

Rank: Is the level of honour of the title, such as King, Duke, Prince, Marquis/Margrave, Ear/Count, etc

Title: Is what the peerage/nobility is of, ie the Dukedom of X, Marsh of X, Earldom of X, Baroney X etc.

HRH Andrew the Duke of York - HRH is the style. Duke is the Rank. of York is the Title. If he was not Royal he would be styled 'His Grace.'

In Germany for example nearly all members of the Noble Family are Noble them selves. For example the title holder is called John Count of Thingyberg. However his children are also noble and thus use the title also and are styled Count Paul of Thingyberg or Countess Anne of Thingyberg. The distinguishment between title holder and rest of family is the placement of their name before or after the Rank. However in the UK the nobility is smaller and limited to only the titleholder. All other members of the family are 'courtesy titles' only and they them selves are not noble.

Therefore Prince Edward is Earl of Wessex. His wife is therefore Sophie, Countess of Wessex as a curtsey title. Their eldest son will be 'X' Viscount Severn (Severn being the lower title of the Earldom of Wessex). Then their daughters and other sons will be Lord X Mountbatten-Windsor or Lady X Mountbatten-Windsor. Children of noble titles in the UK use their surname and not the title name. The only exception are children who are sons/daughters of a Royal Duke and qualify for the style of HRH Prince/Princess as a grandchild of a King/Queen. Thus where as a non-royal he would have been Lord Michael Windsor, as a grandson of George V he is HRH Prince Michael of Kent (In Europe Dukes children qualify for Prince of 'title' - for example Henry VIII's 4th wife Anne of Cleaves, was a Princess of Cleaves however her father was not King of Cleaves he was a Duke of Cleaves).

Below are several links that may be of interest. Understanding the Nobility system is very complicated and not as simple as it first appears. As I said in my last post, even King George VI did not understand it to give Prince Phillip the correct titles upon his marriage to Princess Elizabeth. If your brave enough to attempt the German Noble System you will understand why it was 'tidied up' in the UK.

German Nobility in Law and Practice
http://www.genealogienetz.de/misc/nobility_faq.html

The Use of Highness
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/highness.htm

British Titles of Nobility
http://laura.chinet.com/html/titles01.html

Titles and Forms of Address
http://www.literary-liaisons.com/article038.htm

European Nobility
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/odegard/titlefaq.htm

 

[A.C.C.]

Edward and Sophie's daughter will only be a lady if The Queen issues a letters patent. Remember, even though Andrew is a Duke, he is also a Prince and that is why both of his daughters are princesses. Edward is still a prince even though he is an earl and since the HRH and prince/princess honor is given to the grandchildren of the monarch through the male line, Edward's new daughter is entitled to be a HRH and a princess. Whether this is carried through is the decision of The Queen and The Queen alone.

 

[hrhcp]

A.C.C.  Posted: Sep 20th, 2003 - 10:02 pm
Titles are not taken away from you.

All around, that is not true.
Sir Anthony Blunt lost his "Sir" when it came out publicly that he had been a spy for Russia, and this despite the fact that Blunt had been the Queen's Surveyor? of Pictures for the longest time.

In Canada, a former lawyer for a sports organization lost his Order of Canada because of legal misdeeds for which he was convicted.

However, for persons who are born into a Royal Family, I believe you might be correct.

 

[A.C.C.]

That is what I meant. I was referring to The Queen's grandchildren.

 

[Splodger]

By letters patent Edwards children are entitled to be Prince/Princess however there was a decission made not to give their children these honours. However regardless of these honours, they will be Lady and Lord respectivly as this is standard for noble children of that rank. If the couple have a son, he will one day become Earl of Wessex. I also remember reading somewhere that upon Prince Phillips death, Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh.

 

[A.C.C.]

But The Queen has to issue another letters patent to say that the new baby will not be a Royal Highness or a princess. She, again, is entitled to that because she is a grandchild of the monarch through the male line. If what you are saying was true, then the Duke of York's two daughters would not be princesses, they would be lady's, and this is not the case.

 

[hrhcp]

Splodger  Posted: Nov 23rd, 2003 - 6:10 pm

I also remember reading somewhere that upon Prince Phillips death, Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh.

That is correct.

A.C.C.  Posted: Nov 23rd, 2003 - 6:47 pm

But The Queen has to issue another letters patent to say that the new baby will not be a Royal Highness or a princess. She, again, is entitled to that because she is a grandchild of the monarch through the male line. If what you are saying was true, then the Duke of York's two daughters would not be princesses, they would be lady's, and this is not the case.

Letters patent ... is that officially proclaimed ?
I mean if it is publicly announced, like I read today, that Edward's daughter will be a Highness something, then surely some "OK" has been received (already) from the Palace?

As I gather it, the fact of Andrew's daughters being Princesses raised a lot of fuss ... so the difference with Edward's daughter.

 

[TOMMIX]

Originally posted by King Christian@Nov 23rd, 2003 - 10:32 pm

Splodger   Posted: Nov 23rd, 2003 - 6:10 pm

I also remember reading somewhere that upon Prince Phillips death, Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh.

That is correct.

No, that is not exactly correct. Please refer to a previous posting of mine which explains this situation.
http://www.lestribunesroyales.com/forums/i...=40&#entry46847

 

[Britters]

The way I have come to understand titles, is that all grandchildren of a monarch are given rights to the titles HRH, and Prince/Princess, which would explain why Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie are indeed Princess'
If/When Prince Philip passes on, and Andrew receives the title, Duke of Edinburgh, for that title to continue on with his daughters when he passes on, the reigning monarch at the time would have to bestow that title upon them, (Duchess of Edinburgh), but that is a long way off and I seem to be getting a head of myself!
Edward and Sophie's baby is currently a Princess, as I understand the rules, because the Queen has yet to issue the letters of Patent.

 

[Fireweaver]

Actually, the Dukedom of Edinburgh would go to Prince Charles when Prince Philip dies. So when Charles becomes king, the Dukedom merges with the crown, and Charles is free to give it to his brother, Edward, like his parents wished.
Dukedom's normally go to the oldest son, and most royal peerages in England don't go to daughters anyway, unless they're specificially made so the daughters can inherit (See the Countess of Mountanbatten Pama).

 

[Alexandria]

Originally posted by Fireweaver@Nov 24th, 2003 - 2:26 pm
Actually, the Dukedom of Edinburgh would go to Prince Charles when Prince Philip dies. So when Charles becomes king, the Dukedom merges with the crown, and Charles is free to give it to his brother, Edward, like his parents wished.

I didn't realize that Charles would actually get the Duke of Edinburgh title first. At the time of Edward and Sophie's wedding, when it was announced that they would be the Earl and Countess of Wessex, I thought that it was said that upon Prince Phillp's death, Edward would automatically inherit the title of the Duke of Edinburgh.

Now, as Fireweaver says, it would pass through Charles first and be up to him to bestow this title to his brother. Could Charles pass on this, declining the wishes of the Queen, and give it to one of his sons?

OR, if the Queen is still reigning when Prince Phillip dies, would it be up to Charles at all to decide who gets the Duke of Edinburgh title?

 

[Raia]

Originally posted by TOMMIX+Nov 24th, 2003 - 12:30 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TOMMIX @ Nov 24th, 2003 - 12:30 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-King Christian@Nov 23rd, 2003 - 10:32 pm

Splodger   Posted: Nov 23rd, 2003 - 6:10 pm

I also remember reading somewhere that upon Prince Phillips death, Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh.

That is correct.

No, that is not exactly correct. Please refer to a previous posting of mine which explains this situation.
http://www.lestribunesroyales.com/forums/i...=40&#entry46847 [/b][/quote]
King Christian is right. Tommix if you read about why edward was given a the lesser title of earl you would of understood that it was because he was to become Duke of Edinburgh when his father died. it was on paper signed by the queen. when philip dies it will not go straight to charles because the queen has said it isnt its to go to edward.
Just because you have a PhD in British history doesnt mean you know it all about the royal family and the titles.