Germanic Ancestry of the House of Windsor

[Elspeth]

Just had a quick look at the chart. Edward VI didn't marry Lady Jane Grey, surely. She succeeded him for a week and then Mary came along and did her in.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Re:

Just had a quick look at the chart. Edward VI didn't marry Lady Jane Grey, surely. She succeeded him for a week and then Mary came along and did her in.

Lol. Very true. According to most sources, they did marry. If they didn't, it's very easy to disregard her because she didn't give him any children or contribute to the Royal line in any way.

Do as Mary did and delete her!

 

[branchg]

It does seem that way Lady Marmalade. William V has an English Mother and an English Father. Or does he? Based on Paternal Line, he doesn't. Remember, that by following paternal line - Prince Charles is Greek - that makes his sons Greek - Prince William will be the second Greek King of England, after his father.
By Maternal Line, William is English through Diana.
By Jus Soli, he is English having been born in England.

Charles and William are not Greek. There is no such thing. The Royal House of Greece was imported from Denmark and through intermarriage is both German and Russian as well. None of the Greek royals have a drop of Greek blood.

 

[Elspeth]

Do as Mary did and delete her!

Heh! And why not!

Also, is it really correct that Lady Elizabeth Bowes Lyon is English across the board? British certainly, but surely Scottish rather than English in some of those cases.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Re:

Charles and William are not Greek. There is no such thing. The Royal House of Greece was imported from Denmark and through intermarriage is both German and Russian as well. None of the Greek royals have a drop of Greek blood.

Actually, this isn't quite true but it is if you see what I mean.

George I of the Hellenes was Danish, so his sons were all Danish. This would make Prince Philip Danish and Princes Charles and William Danish also. However, if you use the rule of Jus Soli, then Prince Andrew of Greece was born on Greek soil and is therefore Greek, so is Prince Philip. However, Charles and William would be English by Jus Soli being born on English soil.

The key is to stick to one method and not flip. By Paternal Line, Charles and William are Danish but by Jus Soli they are Greek.

Thanks for pointing that out Branchg!

As for Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, she was born in England and by Jus Soli is English. Her father is English as far as I can see and her mother is too. But I'm willing to believe otherwise because the information is a bit hazy about her parents lineage. Again, how far does one go back?

 

[branchg]

The Queen is half Scottish through her mother, and half German through her father. She has a thin bloodline of Stuart and English blood through the Hanovers and Saxe-Coburgs as well as her mother's side. Arguably, she is German-Scottish as is Charles.

William is far more English than the Blood Royal through his mother, who had one of the most eminent and aristocratic English bloodlines in the UK.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Re:

Thats the next step - half-x and half-y.

William isn't really more English than the Queen. His father is half-greek and his mother was English. As you say, the Queen's father was half-german and her mother was English (as far as I can find out, do you know where the scottish line comes in?). So, both the Queen and William half half-foreign blood and half-British blood.

In my opinion though! I don't think that getting into fractions is a good idea! The official ruling is that a persons nationality is decided by their birth place. Their heritage is a different matter altogether.

 

[Elspeth]

Well, the Queen Mother is reputed to descend from King Robert Bruce, so there's some Scottish in there somewhere. The Lyon family are Scottish rather than English, aren't they?

 

[BeatrixFan]

Re:

This is where confusion comes in.

I decided the nationality of each individual based on birth place. Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon's immediate family were English, hence why she is listed as being 100% English. Go back a few centuries and you might find she is Scottish but it's hard to find that info and this really is an amateur study not a huge expert one - as I said originally, it only gives a basic result not a heavily detailed one. I would say its 75% reliable.

 

[ysbel]

This is a mammoth effort, thanks so much for putting it together!

One suggestion: If I were you, I would simplify the chart just a bit to show only the kings and queens that are ancestors of the current royal family and eliminate the ones that aren't so we can get a clearer picture of their heritage. (for example, I'd get rid of Edward VIII, William IV, George IV, Anne, Mary II, William II, Charles II, Elizabeth I, Mary I, Henry VIII, Lady Jane Grey because the current crowd isn't descended from them)

This chart is great for an overview of the history of the British monarchy but its a little confusing to follow when looking just for William's bloodlines.

Correction: I just saw that Diana was descended from Charles II but that was from an illegitimate child several generations ago and Diana is probably just as closely descended from French kings through her mother as she is from Charles II.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Re:

I think thats very true Ysbel. The next stage of the investigation is to begin creating individual nationality trees for each of todays crowd.

That would show the nationality of the Queen Mother, Diana etc etc and would show a clearer bloodline for William and Charles also.

I think Diana and Camilla are both descendants of a mistress of Charles II - but to be honest, so are alot of British Aristocracy. We have Barbara Villiers to thank for that!

 

[ysbel]

Well, the Queen Mother is reputed to descend from King Robert Bruce, so there's some Scottish in there somewhere. The Lyon family are Scottish rather than English, aren't they?

Oh so that means she's related to me! I never knew that! I'm mostly English but my grandmother was a Mackintosh from the Highlands and a great grandmother was descended from Robert the Bruce.

 

[Warren]

This is a mammoth effort, thanks so much for putting it together!

A mammoth effort indeed. Endless opportunity for discussion and debate.
Have you thought about making it into a board game?
.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Re:

Have you thought about making it into a board game?

Yes. And before you even ask, I'm being the Top Hat okay? Come on, I invented it - if I want to be the Top Hat, I think I'm sort of entitled.

 

[Warren]

Yes. And before you even ask, I'm being the Top Hat okay? Come on, I invented it - if I want to be the Top Hat, I think I'm sort of entitled.

I think you've earned the right to be (and wear) whatever hat you want. I'd go for a Crown myself.

 

[Elspeth]

Sorry, Warren, I've got the crown. Will a nice tiara do for you instead?

 

[Warren]

Sorry, Warren, I've got the crown. Will a nice tiara do for you instead?

Anything with diamonds, Elspeth!

 

[Lady Marmalade]

It does seem that way Lady Marmalade. William V has an English Mother and an English Father. Or does he? Based on Paternal Line, he doesn't. Remember, that by following paternal line - Prince Charles is Greek - that makes his sons Greek - Prince William will be the second Greek King of England, after his father.
By Maternal Line, William is English through Diana.
By Jus Soli, he is English having been born in England.

Yes, but while Prince Phillip was Greek by virtue of being born in that country to the ruling family, his bloodline is not Greek as is well known.

There are only three members of Greek Royal Family with actual Greek blood, Princess Alexandra - Past Queen of Yugoslavia, born to Aspasia Minos, and Princesses Olga and Alexandra, born to Marina Karella and Prince Michael.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Sorry, Warren, I've got the crown. Will a nice tiara do for you instead?

May I have the London Fringe Tiara then?

 

[BeatrixFan]

Yes, but while Prince Phillip was Greek by virtue of being born in that country to the ruling family, his bloodline is not Greek as is well known

I totally agree Lady Marmalade and I understand what you mean. The entire Greek Royal Family is Danish, set aside for King Constantine who Prince Michael of Greece says , "is the most Greek of all of us".

When trying to determine a nationality, you have to use one of three methods and not change at all. I prefer to do things by Maternal Line but others use Jus Soli - it's a personal thing, although the official way is Jus Soli which would make him Greek despite his Danish blood.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

I totally agree Lady Marmalade and I understand what you mean. The entire Greek Royal Family is Danish, set aside for King Constantine who Prince Michael of Greece says , "is the most Greek of all of us".

When trying to determine a nationality, you have to use one of three methods and not change at all. I prefer to do things by Maternal Line but others use Jus Soli - it's a personal thing, although the official way is Jus Soli which would make him Greek despite his Danish blood.

Gotcha..I understand now how you are going about this.

I think it is very interesting and fun to discuss this family's background.

Even here in the United States we are taught that up until the recent past two generations, the blood background is mostly of German lineage.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Re:

Gotcha..I understand now how you are going about this.

Hee Hee - I've only just understood myself Lady M!

I think it is very interesting and fun to discuss this family's background.

Even here in the United States we are taught that up until the recent past two generations, the blood background is mostly of German lineage

I think it's good to know about the German lineage but I can't stand ignorance. These republicans who say, "They're all German" - truly irritating!

I love the whole idea of the great European Houses mixing and being so exclusive!
.

 

[Alexandra]

I need to check...but wasn't Princess Alice (Prince Phillip's mother) the grandaughter of Queen Victoria. Her mother was Princess Alice, the 2nd daughter of the Queen. So that would make her English/German more than Russian.

Prince Philip's mother was another princess Alice! Not the daughter of Queen Victoria but the granddaughter of that first Alice. Also:

Queen Victoria
Daughter: Alice, married with Ludwig von Hessen-Darmstadt
Their daughter was Victoria, married with Ludwig von Battenberg (or Mountbatten)
Their daughter was Alice, married with Andreas of Greece
Their son prince is Philip, married with Elisabeth II of England

 

[Skydragon]

Thats a matter for debate though Skydragon. I've researched it and all the "German" ancestors seem to trace back to Denmark. Certainly the House of Windsor is extremely Danish in origin.

We will have to agree to differ, after all, Queen Victoria's husband Albert was from Saxe-Coburg, a German duchy. Victoria's grandson King George V was an honorary Field Marshal in the German army and decided to renounce the German name and titles and adopt that of Windsor.

Edward VIII once declared: "There is not one drop of blood in my veins that is not German."

 

[BeatrixFan]

Well, I won't go into it here because it's very much off-topic but if you trace the Saxe-Coburgs back as I did, there was quite a strong Danish presence IIRC. I'll have to dig those papers out again! But they do seem more Danish to me. I did find however that it depends on what method you use - paternal, maternal or jus soli.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I´m not here to defend german history, but some people should think before they decide what has been hidden in closets... whereever....
Sorry Avalon, i understand....

Hey, did I miss the fun when it came to Germany? Hm... sad, that...

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Thats a matter for debate though Skydragon. I've researched it and all the "German" ancestors seem to trace back to Denmark. Certainly the House of Windsor is extremely Danish in origin.

Hm, hm, hm, we should call in Warren with his expertise. But last thing I knew was that the Danish Royal family is extremely Germanic in their origins, which is totally normal, as the idea of "Germany" dates back only to 1871. Before that it was the Holy Roman Empire of Germany, which included at times countries from the Russian border to ... to the rest of the world, come to think of it when we take German emperor Karl V. (Charles V. of Habsburg) who, as grandson of the kings of Spain Ferdinand and Isabella was not only king of Spain but of all Spanish dominions round the world at that time. He said that in his "empire the sun never goes down" and was right about it as the pope had devided the rest of the world between Portugal and Spain at that time. Nationalism is an idea of the 1800s and the Germanic connections of the Windsors are mostly older than that, due to the marriage of Scottish/English princess Elizabeth Stuart to the prince -elector of the Palatinate, who was king of Bohemia for a winter.

So let's state that at a time when nationalities started to get more important than dynastic connections, the Windsors (aka the Hanoverans) had safely arrived in Britain and made it their home. Even though due to the lack of protestant princesses in other parts of Europe they chose mainly wifes (and husbands) from German(ic) protestant noble and Royal families.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I prefer to do things by Maternal Line but others use Jus Soli - it's a personal thing, although the official way is Jus Soli which would make him Greek despite his Danish blood.

If you use the maternal line then the Windsors as descendants of Mary Stuart's granddaughter Elizabeth Stuart of Scotland and England are surely British! Or not?

 

[HRH Kimetha]

Oh so that means she's related to me! I never knew that! I'm mostly English but my grandmother was a Mackintosh from the Highlands and a great grandmother was descended from Robert the Bruce.

Hey! I've got a Mackintosh in my family history!! And, I do genealogy. Maybe we're related!

 

[lord_rankin]

While I would never consider the present Royal Family German it is interesting to note that Edward VIII was the first monarch since George I who did not speak the language. Kaiser Wilhelm II commented more than once about Queen Victoria and Edward VII ability to speak the language like natives.