Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[lashinka2002]

Here's a good link with lots of pics for whoever has time to browse through.

http://worldroots.com/brigitte/royal/royal20.htm

Here's a link on the romanov family
It talks about Anastasia the family, her childhood, the revolution & Anna Anderson
It states that recent DNA analysis proved that she was not Anastasia.

http://www.royalty.nu/Europe/Russia/Anastasia.html

 

[hillary_nugent]

I love the Anastasia mystery...about Anna anderson she didn't want to provide any DNA samples too so i always had doubts about her...but it would be so cool if Anastasia or one of her siblings did survive =)

 

[monamona]

I just watched a documentary on Anastasia's mystery and Anna Anderson. Genetics, Anthropology, Advanced pics comparison were all used to put an end to this Mystery. In the documentary, it was said that Prince Philip of England, Husband of Queen Elizabeth was related to the mother of Anastasia. they took his blood to extract the DNA. Anna Anderson's body was burnt when she died. How they got her DNA?. Anna Anderson had a surgery (can't remember the year they said in the documentary) during which they cut a small piece of her intestins. this piece was preserved in the lab. It was through this piece that they extracted her DNA. Both DNA (Prince Philip's and Anderson's) were compared by Dr Gill. the result was that ANNA Anderson was NOT Anastasia . the Two DNA were further compared in Two other labs (military). the same result . In the documentary they talked about a women called Fransesca and they said she was Anna Anderson. They found a cousin of this Fransesca in Germany from whom they took a blood sample. It turned out that his DNA showed that he is related to Fransesca (Anna Anderson).

I was hoping that Anna Anderson was Anastasia. they were people in the documentary who did not believe the results of the test. All the comparison of DNA was done against the DNA of Prince Philip of England...

I am still hoping they find an error in the way they did the test.

 

[monamona]

"
THE DNA TESTS AFTER ANNA ANDERSON MANAHAN DIED


Many people are convinced the widely-reported DNA testing that was done on tissue and hair that was said to be Anna's proved nothing.

While the DNA testing itself was done by honest professionals, the samples they were given to test were almost certainly rigged. The DNA experts had no way to know that, and they said as much.

The truth is, there's no evidence the tissue and hair they tested actually came from Anna Manahan.

Briefly, here's the case for Anna before the DNA tests

• Anna was thoroughly convinced and convincing that she was Anastasia
• Anna matched Anastasia's physical measurements, including the unique scars
• Anna evidently had the memories Anastasia had
• In the most trying or the least trying of circumstances, Anna was always in character
• The people who knew the Grand Duchess back in Russia - at least those who had nothing to lose if she were proven to be alive - all swore Anna was Anastasia

Such evidence does not die with Anna. " More is in here:
http://www.freewarehof.org/manahans.html

 

[norwegianne]

As Anastasia's body was one of those found, and identified by DNA, the chances that Anna Anderson's DNA tests and those tests were wrong must not be very big.

I remember that King Olav of Norway commented on the case in a book he was interviewed for in 1977. (He was related to the Romanovs by way of Anastasia's grandmother, who was his great aunt, and thus was Anastasia's second cousin) He said that there were few people in the family who believed Anna Anderson's claims.

 

[KikkiB]

I remember that in 1997 they had identified all the members of the Romanov family by DNA, and that all the European royals that were related to them helped out by giving DNA samples. And as far as I know DNA testing today is quite a sure thing.

If I'm not wrong the Romanovs were put to rest in St. Petersburg (?) in a ceremony in 1997.

As Anastasia's body was one of those found, and identified by DNA, the chances that Anna Anderson's DNA tests and those tests were wrong must not be very big.

I remember that King Olav of Norway commented on the case in a book he was interviewed for in 1977. (He was related to the Romanovs by way of Anastasia's grandmother, who was his great aunt, and thus was Anastasia's second cousin) He said that there were few people in the family who believed Anna Anderson's claims.

 

[tiaraprin]

"
THE DNA TESTS AFTER ANNA ANDERSON MANAHAN DIED


Many people are convinced the widely-reported DNA testing that was done on tissue and hair that was said to be Anna's proved nothing.

While the DNA testing itself was done by honest professionals, the samples they were given to test were almost certainly rigged. The DNA experts had no way to know that, and they said as much.

The truth is, there's no evidence the tissue and hair they tested actually came from Anna Manahan.

Briefly, here's the case for Anna before the DNA tests

• Anna was thoroughly convinced and convincing that she was Anastasia
• Anna matched Anastasia's physical measurements, including the unique scars
• Anna evidently had the memories Anastasia had
• In the most trying or the least trying of circumstances, Anna was always in character
• The people who knew the Grand Duchess back in Russia - at least those who had nothing to lose if she were proven to be alive - all swore Anna was Anastasia

Such evidence does not die with Anna. " More is in here:
http://www.freewarehof.org/manahans.html

If you are really interested in this topic, Please read Anastasia by James Blair Lovell. He was appointed official biographer to Anna Anderson Manahan and the book has some surprises in it--including a FIFTH Imperial Princess possibility! Whether any of it is true, I do not know.

 

[Alicky]

Hmmmm, the story is interesting! Did you hear about the "Uncle Ernie" twist? That makes you wonder too. I don't know who Anna Anderson was, but I am not at all convinced that she was Franziska Schanzkowska. And she did know things that seemed impossible for her to know had she not been Anastasia, but the thought of anyone surviving that night is just too fantastic for me to believe, no matter how much I'd like to.

 

[Alicky]

You're right, we'll never know. Maybe it's more fun that way. If Anna was Anastasia, it's very sad for her. If she wasn't Anastasia, it's still very sad for her. A very sad life.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Re:

I thought that the Helen Hayes speech when she played Empress Marie in 'Anastasia' - the 1956 film with Ingrid Bergman as Anderson- summed it up so well;

"I will not deny that there is a resemblance but there are certain things that cannot be taught - you are not my grand-daughter"

There was another brilliant comment but I'll have to dig out the DVD to find it.

Of course, thats only fiction but the sentiment is the same sentiment I have - lookalikes exist. And so do con-artists. Anyone could have told Anderson the things that convinced some of her testimonials.

 

[Layla1971]

I once seen a two-part tv movie called (I think) Anastasia, The Mystery of Anna.
It had this one scene where the Tsar's sister, Olga, came to see the woman in question, and said "she isn't who she believes herself to be".
I would think Anastasia's aunt would know her own neice.
But, alot of people think it's Maria that's missing, not Anastasia, so maybe Anna Anderson was a sad woman who pretended for all those years.
Very sad either way.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Re:

I think it was Xenia who went to see Anna Anderson, not Olga but whoever it was, they told the Romanov Family Association that they should take legal action against Anderson and as you rightly say, Olga/Xenia said, "She is not who she believes herself to be"

The other Helen Hayes quote which the Empress is supposed to have said is, "I do not have time to see every young woman with a Royal Obssession".

 

[Layla1971]

I think it was Xenia who went to see Anna Anderson, not Olga but whoever it was, they told the Romanov Family Association that they should take legal action against Anderson and as you rightly say, Olga/Xenia said, "She is not who she believes herself to be"

The other Helen Hayes quote which the Empress is supposed to have said is, "I do not have time to see every young woman with a Royal Obssession".

You could be right about it being Xenia, I just read a quote that it was Olga, but either way they didn't believe it was her, and I can't believe that they would turn their backs on family, particulary after the murders.

 

[juliamontague]

It was Olga who met Anna Anderson.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Re:

Thanks Julia - my apologies Layla! I think Xenia was due to meet Anderson but on Olga's word, didn't.

 

[Jil]

I remember that King Olav of Norway commented on the case in a book he was interviewed for in 1977. (He was related to the Romanovs by way of Anastasia's grandmother, who was his great aunt, and thus was Anastasia's second cousin) He said that there were few people in the family who believed Anna Anderson's claims.

It is a fact that King Olav's wife, Martha did believe that Anna Anderson was Anastasia. The following is quoted from the book: "The Riddle of Anna Anderson" By Peter Kurth (Page 116):

" Ambassor Zahle (Danish Mininster Plenipotentiary to Berlin) had been approached by Princess Martha of Sweden, a good friend who would one day become Crown Princess of Norway. Martha wondered if Zahle might arrange for her a meeting with the woman who claimed to be the daughter of the Tsar. Zahle explained that "Frau Tschaikovsky" (this is what Anastasia was called at the time) rarely received vistors (and never if she suspected that they had come to test her). "I'll tell you what," he suggested. "She's in the habit of stepping out on the balcony to wave good-bye to me when I leave. Why don't you come along in the car?" It took place exactly as the ambassador had said it would. His audience over, Zahle turned to wave from the courtyard. He had barely raised his arm before he heard a gasp from behind him: "But that isn't Tatiana; it's Anastasia!" Zahle looked around: "Whatever made you think it was supposed to be Tatiana? It is suppose to be Anastasia." "Well it is Anastasia,", said Princess Martha. This episode-well known to the royal families of Europe-had taken place before Anastasia had passed through the worst of her illness in the summer of 1925: that is, before she was visited by the Gilliards and Grand Duchess Olga."

 

[Jil]

If you are really interested in this topic, Please read Anastasia by James Blair Lovell. He was appointed official biographer to Anna Anderson Manahan and the book has some surprises in it--including a FIFTH Imperial Princess possibility! Whether any of it is true, I do not know.

Peter Kurth mentions this "fifth Imperial Princess" in his book titled: "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson".
I quote from this book (page 265):

"Anastasia attracted as many crackpots as she did journalists, her illustrious visitor might have been a Dutch housewife who claimed to be the fifth daughter of the Tsar, kidnapped from Tsarskoe Selo in babyhood: or, again, a persistent, dangerous woman who swore she was Nicholas and Alexandra's illegitimate grandchild-born in 1916, somehow being the offspring of Olga Nicolaievna and a Bolshevik soldier-and who threatened to shoot her way inside the barracks(Anastasia was then living in the barracks of Unterlengenhardt in Baden-Wurttemberg, Germany. She moved there in 1949.)if her "Aunt Anastasia" wouldn't open the door."

The book does not mention anymore of this "fifth Princess".

 

[Jil]

I once seen a two-part tv movie called (I think) Anastasia, The Mystery of Anna.
It had this one scene where the Tsar's sister, Olga, came to see the woman in question, and said "she isn't who she believes herself to be".

Olga wrote a letter in October of 1925 to Herluf Zahle, who was the Danish Minister Plenipotentiary to Berlin that said:

"Dear Mr. Zahle,
I and my husband want to express to you and your wife our warmest thanks for your hospitality.
I have had very long conversations with my mother and Uncle Waldemar (Prince of Denmark and brother of the Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna of Russia) all about our poor friend (Anastasia). I can't tell you how fond I got of her-whoever she is. My feeling is that she is not the one she believes-but one can't say she is not as a fact-as there are still many strange and inexplicable facts not cleared up. How she is after our departure? I have sent her a postcard and shall write from time to time so that she may feel we are near her. Once more let me thank you both.
With best wishes to you, your wife, Britta and her governess, I remain yours most gratefully and affectionately,
Olga"
*Letter quoted from the book: "Annastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson" by Peter Kurth (Page 119). Letter written October 31, 1925.

*Peter Kurth says in his notes: "The original is, of course, in Zahle's papers, with a certified copy in BA (Serge Botkin Archive). When asked about this document during her testimony at Toronto, Olga claimed ignorance: "If I wrote that letter, I can no longer say what I had in mind with those words, because so far as I was concerned it was established that the claimant was not Anastasia.""

 

[Jil]

Hmmmm, the story is interesting! Did you hear about the "Uncle Ernie" twist?

The book: "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson" By Peter Kurth says the following:
"In 1929, long after the scandal of her claim had broken in the world press, Anastasia was asked to account for the undying hostility toward her at the court of her "Uncle Ernie", the Grand Duke of Hesse. She explained as best she could:
"It started from the moment I told...about the time (the Grand Duke)
came to Russia. Then started their campaign against me.............
I didn't know what was going on..I was at that time near death
and didn't know what was going on........
It was during the war-in 1916. He came to arrange with my
mother and father a treaty. He came under an assumed name,
but all of us children knew him because we had seen him before.
If it had been known, they would of put him out of Germany,
and he was terribly afraid..." (Page 93)

The book also has a quote from the Kaiser's daughter, Viktoria Luise:

"I personally know of no one who has any evidence of the Grand Duke's trip to St. Petersburg (Tsarskoe Selo), neither did I hear anything from my father about it. But I do know that the proposal to send a prince over there was discussed, and also with the military commanders, but Ludendorff was strictly against it. So if such a step had been taken, it was taken without the knowledge of the High Command. That would explain the Grand Duke's absolute silence, too, particularly as regards his own family. They certainly never got the slightest indication from him." (Page 95)

The book goes on to say:

"In the years ahead Anastasia had the satisfaction of hearing her story confirmed by a variety of people who were in a position to know something about it. The wall of secrecy began to crack when, 25 years later, the German Crown Princess Cecilie stepped forward to affirm not only that the Grand Duke of Hesse had undertaken the peace mission to Russia, but that "our circles knew about it even at the time." The Crown Princess's own source had been her father-in-law, the Kaiser." (Page 95)

*All quotes from the book: "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson" By Peter Kurth (Little, Brown and Company: Boston, 1983)

 

[Charlottesville]

Where I stand on the continuing Romanov contreversy

Hi. I'm a young person with a great interest in the Romanovs and I'd to share where I stand on this continuing contereversy surrounding the Romanovs. There are many different opinions on this case, and the truth is that none of us know the real truth. In 1991, when the mass grave in Siberia was finally discovered, it was discovered that two bodies were missing. Everyone agrees that the body of Alexei the Tsarevich is missing, but Russian scientists claim that Marie was missing while American scientists claimed that Anastasia was missing. Personally, I find that the evidence that all the vertabrae are too mature to be that of a girl who just turned 17 years old too be most convincing.
-DNA testing in 1993 showed that the mtDNA of Empress Alexandra and her daughter to be a perfect match with the Duke of Edinburgh. DNA testing in 1994 on the remains of the most famous Romanov survivor claimant, Anna Anderson Manahan, showed that her mtDNA did not match that of the Duke of Edinburgh, meaning that she could not be Anastasia as she claimed until her death in 1984. Instead, it matched with an alleged grandnephew of Franziska Schanzkowska (the woman who Anna Anderson's opponents claimed she was), Carl Maucher, exact enough to conclude that Franziska Schanzkowska and Anna Anderson were one and the same. However, not only recent analysis by Japanese scientists, but changes in the method of DNA typing have challenged the above tests and their continued validity.

Anna Anderson:

-While I personally do believe that these are most likely the remains of the Romanov family, Dr Botkin, and the 3 others (due to the fact that they fit the description of the family perfectly), I do continue to believe that the woman known as Anna Anderson Manahan was indeed the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna. While her exclusive memories and intimate knowledge of Imperial family could be argued that she was told by a group of Russian emigres and that the same exact scars and marks were mere coincedence, there is one piece of circumstantional evidence that convinces me that Anna Anderson was indeed the grand duchess which will never die no matter what science can 'prove'. It's the fact that Anna Anderson's opponents were always caught in their lies. Such as Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, who declared that she had known immediatley that Anna Anderson was not her niece, despite the fact that she spent several days with her and wrote 5 letters to her with gifts declaring, "We shall never abandon you." Imperial tutor Pierre Gilliard is perhaps even more convincing. When Pierre Gilliard submitted photos of Anastasia for comparison, he submitted one of Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna, Anastasia's sister. He also declared that the young grand duchesses had never learned to speak German, which was certainly not true. During the infamous 'Anastasia' trials in Hamburg, Germany in the 1960's, when Doris Wingender submitted a photo of Anna Tschaivkovsky (Anderson) wearing the sweater Doris claimed to have given her, experts concluded that she had touched up the photo, adding on buttons. Another woman who supposedly knew Franziska Schanzkowska so well and recognized her as Anna Anderson was called to the witness stand to identify which photos in front of her were of Franziska Schanzkowska. She identified all the photos as Franziska, all except the one of Franziska. My question to you is, why should they have to continually lie if this was indeed a fraud?

 

[Charlottesville]

I thought that the Helen Hayes speech when she played Empress Marie in 'Anastasia' - the 1956 film with Ingrid Bergman as Anderson- summed it up so well;

"I will not deny that there is a resemblance but there are certain things that cannot be taught - you are not my grand-daughter"

There was another brilliant comment but I'll have to dig out the DVD to find it.

Of course, thats only fiction but the sentiment is the same sentiment I have - lookalikes exist. And so do con-artists. Anyone could have told Anderson the things that convinced some of her testimonials.

But this dosen't expain why her opponents had to create lies to discredit her.

 

[princesslily]

It is a really interesting thread, but wasn't it Ana NOT Anna?

 

[juliamontague]

who do you mean?

 

[Charlottesville]

It is a really interesting thread, but wasn't it Ana NOT Anna?

No. It was Anna Anderson.

 

[Charlottesville]

I can assue you that Anna Anderson was no imposter. Not only did she have the same scars and memories of Anastasia, she was recognized by most of the people who knew Anastasia as being exactly who she was. That is, except by Olga Alexandrovna and Pierre Gilliard and others who met her. These two also initially recognized her as Anastasia, but then changed their strory, saying they knew instantly she was an imposter. Gilliard was one of the biggest liars of the century. Just read the court documents. He was exposed for lieing so many times it's not even funny. The identity of Franziska Schanzkowska is ridiculous. She was several inches taller than Anna Anderson, she wore a size shoe 3 sizes bigger, spoke perfect German, and was not even wounded in the factory explosion. The family of Franziska didn't even recognize Anderson as their sister. The DNA tests are not even valid today. Those methods are no longer even used.
1) 20-point STR method is now used instead of 6-point STR method, making the nuclearDNA tests obsolete.
2) mtDNA is no longer even used in court cases. It can be contaminated by simply toucing it or breathing on it.
3) Recent studies show that 40 of a random 1,000 people share the exact same mtDNA profile.
Anna Anderson was exactly who she claimed to be. There is absolutely no evidence against it, and taken with the fact that the body of Anastasia is not in the grave, I think our answer to the question of Anastasia's whereabouts are at Castle Seeon in the ashes that lie beneath the stone which says, 'Anastasia Manahan 1901-1984'.

 

[Charlottesville]

I'm amazed at how people say that there were things Anna Anderson knew that someone could have told her. That is a weak argument in my opinion, because some of the things she told people like Felix Dassel and Princess Xenia were things that no one outside of the Russian court could have know, especially a polish farm girl. Numerous royals and others would try and trip her up and catch her in a mistake, but they could not trip her up no matter how hard they tried. Lili Dehn recognized Mrs. Anderson as the Grand Duchess without reservation and Ms. Dehn and Anastasia had been especially close to each other. Anna Anderson was certainly not an imposter, and certainly not a Polish farm girl. Just read 'Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson' by Peter Kurth and you will understand.

 

[RussianHistoryBuff]

Anna Anderson's DNA testing was considered inconclusive after several facilities fought over their results. Although she did exhibit some charactoristics of Anastasia, she was found out to be a runaway from some factory job in Poland. Several different Historical Sociaties agree on this, and it would be better in my opinion to follow up on the DNA that was sent to the Uk. The website http://members.surfeu.fi/thaapanen/Articles/st12.html tells more about this theory.

 

[Charlottesville]

I am kind of confused. I've never heard of anyone fighting over their results, but I can tell you the Polish factory story is false.

If AA was not Anastasia, there is too much which cannot be explained. How did she manage to know about the play in Tobolsk where Anastasia dressed as a man and her skirt flew up if it wasn't even confirmed until much later by Sydney Gibbes. How did she know of the incident which occured between Empress Alexandra, Anja, Lili Dehn, where the little Anastasia was there if she was not Anastasia (Lili Dehn herself pointed this out). How did she know the exact place Alexandra wrote her initials in her room at Peterhof? How did she know Alexandra had the swastika on her car when it could only be confirmed with a magnifying glass?

These are just some examples of MANY. There are too many coincidences between AN and AA to be overlooked.

The Franziska Schanzkowska story rings very false from beginning to end. How did this investigator attempt to discover AA's identity in a matter of weeks while the Berlin police couldn't even do it after a serious effort of seven years?! Why did Getrude Schanzkowska add belts and buttons to those photographs in court? Why did Pierre Gilliard touch up Franziska's photographs in his book to look like AA? What are the chances AA would he gotten a scar on her foot in the triangular shape of a bayonet from an explosion in a grenade factory? Very low.

The results of the DNA tests can be explained in a few ways. Either the DNA was not her's, was tampered with, was simply misidentified, or we were all fed a lie by the scientists (which I consider very unlikely). The chain of custody would never stand up in court. This is a fact, which is probably why it was never submitted for judicial reviewing.

If AA was not AN, then why are so many documents being hidden from us? It makes no sense. The Danish Royal family still holds Ambassador Zahle's papers, and Grand Duke Andrew's papers are being kept from us as well. The writing is on the wall however. The results of the DNA tests are not what would have been given if DNA had been extracted directly from the body of Anna Anderson Manahan if her body was still in existance. I promise you that.

 

[Mapple]

I'd like to remind everyone that a group of leading forensic experts determined in the 1990s that Anastasia's remains were among the bones which had been found in Sverdlovskaya Oblast.

 

[Charlottesville]

I'd like to remind everyone that a group of leading forensic experts determined in the 1990s that Anastasia's remains were among the bones which had been found in Sverdlovskaya Oblast.

I'd like to remind you about the American and British team that determined her remains in fact missing. The body of no. 5 the Russians kept insisting was Anastasia was in fact 5'7. It couldn't be Anastasia. The Russians are not nearly as advanced as the US and UK teams either. They placed their assertion that AN was in the grave on photo comparisons with only a few photos which is controversial in itself, this with a skull which had to be placed together. The US/UK teams determined by roots in the teeth, vertebrae, etc.- things which are MUCH more reliable than those photo comparisons- that the bodies are ALL too old to be that of a girl who JUST turned 17. Are we to forget Anastasia was smaller than most girls her age? Anastasia is not in that grave. The Russians had an agenda. They didn't want the rumors of Anastasia's escape to be true.