Princess Delphine & Family, News & Events 1; 2020 - 2023

[KellyAtLast]

And your hyperbolic statement is not ridiculous?

Nope......

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Exactly. I am guessing there will likely be more hissies on royal discussion forums than anywhere in Belgian everyday life.

Had the decision gone the other way, that would be no different. Earlier polling demonstrated that supporters of granting royal titles for Delphine, while abundant, remained in the minority of everyday Belgians.

The law gave her what she deserves after the horrible treatment and rejection she has endured.

Which law do you have in mind?

Whatever the legal basis may have been for the court's decision (something I hope will be clarified), it is unlikely to have been the principle that royal titles are deserved as compensation for horrible treatment and rejection. Many ordinary Belgians have endured horrible treatment and rejection, and no titles were granted to them in yesterday's ruling.

Why is it when a wronged woman brazenly asserts herself and is victorious over a powerful man she still ends up labelled as scheming, greedy and nasty? Society still has a problem with assertive women who don't back down, whereas assertive men are readily respected and admired when they prevail.

I fail to see where the post to which Denville responded made any mention of Delphine. Furthermore, I suggest reading the comments of the poster to whom they responded and comparing them to the comments of the persons I asked about here.

I read Josephine and Oscar were also born out of wedlock but will bear the titles of princes anyway. This is deeply unfair to Princess Esmeralda's children I think.

Yes, they were born out of wedlock, but their parents subsequently married, which would have legitimated them even under the old laws.

As I said before, I hope that if the court's decision stands, Princess Esmeralda's children (and Prince Amedeo's children, who already bear the titles of princess and prince) will also be recognized as princes and princesses of Belgium and HRH.

 

[Addapalla]

Tatiana Maria, The succession law of King Baudouin the early 1990's gives Albert's descendants in male and female line the title and styles HRH Prince/Princess of Belgium

The decree did not specify only descendants born in wedlock. As for Esmeralda, Baudouin's succession law did not apply to the children of Leopold III.

When Amedeo married, the present king amended his uncle's law to limit Belgian royal titles and styles to children and grandchildren of the sovereign as well as those of the heir.

So Delphine and her children perfectly qualify under the succession laws as they are written.

 

[Denville]

Exactly. I am guessing there will likely be more hissies on royal discussion forums than anywhere in Belgian everyday life. The law gave her what she deserves after the horrible treatment and rejection she has endured. Why is it when a wronged woman brazenly asserts herself and is victorious over a powerful man she still ends up labelled as scheming, greedy and nasty? Society still has a problem with assertive women who don't back down, whereas assertive men are readily respected and admired when they prevail.

I dont think she was right to go for the Princess title.. but I suspect after such a long fight, she grew hardened and wanted as much as she could in compensation. She has a good case against Albert and the fact that the court seem to have acquiesced quite quickly in giving her the Princess title suggests that this was expected by the Belg RF and their lawyers and they were willing to give way on it...
I doubt if most of hte Belgian public are that bothered..

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Tatiana Maria, The succession law of King Baudouin the early 1990's gives Albert's descendants in male and female line the title and styles HRH Prince/Princess of Belgium

The decree did not specify only descendants born in wedlock. As for Esmeralda, Baudouin's succession law did not apply to the children of Leopold III.

When Amedeo married, the present king amended that law to limit Belgian royal titles and styles to children and grandchildren of the sovereign and those of the heir.

So Delphine qualifies under the succession laws as they are written.

The royal decrees regulating the title of Prince or Princess of Belgium are distinct from the succession laws, which are part of the Constitution.

The royal decrees specified that they applied to descendants who were princes and princesses. Under Belgian nobiliary law, a descendant born out of wedlock would not have been born automatically as a prince or princess. Therefore, the decrees were perceived to be inapplicable to out of wedlock descendants.

The 2015 decree limited HRH and "of Belgium" to children and grandchildren but allowed more distant descendants to remain princes and princesses.

Please read these posts, as well as my posts in the Titles and Styles thread, for more information about the traditional reading of the royal decrees.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...of-belgium-47954-post2345800.html#post2345800
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-delphine-of-belgium-47954-4.html#post2345903

 

[Denville]

Nope......

It is not at all the case that "anyone can go to court and demand a royal title". I cant imagine why anyone would think this...

 

[Denville]

I read Josephine and Oscar were also born out of wedlock but will bear the titles of princes anyway. This is deeply unfair to Princess Esmeralda's children I think.

Now every Prince of Belgium will think twice before going out with any woman (rightly so) because any children they will have may have a case.

Really? I hardly think that Belgian princes are going to remain celibate becuase of this

 

[Addapalla]

I dont think she was right to go for the Princess title..

Belgian law does. Some may not like it, but Delphine and her children perfectly qualify for royal titles & styles under the succession laws as they are written.

 

[cathy50]

Tatiana Maria

"I recall her saying her husband and children are supportive of her actions. "

1. it is a difference what she says and her family members might feel and some of this will show only in the future especially in her children's souls
2. she has proofed of not being reliable, not to say she is a liar

she wants the same privileges as her HALFsiblings, let's see maybe she'll ask Paola to adopt her (sarcasm)
thanks God she wasn't albert's firstborn!

we do not know what happened behind closed doors, albert's behaviour until January seemed really unlogical so it's obviously likely she blackmailed and pressured the royal family, but only kept her true intentions quiet to the public, media and court.

reminds me of Miss Markle, better to distance and protect your loved ones, you never know what's next.
Delphine ain't no victim, she knew who her father was, she wanted the world to know it, too and titles plus?? disgusting character and to compare herself with persons who suffer from lifelong search for a parent is a highly repulsive action and punch in the face for those who really suffer.
May we write our opinion, because now she is royal? sorry, but respect must be earned not won in a lawsuit.
By the way I wonder what her art will be next, in the past all she did was telling her story through pictures... but now? but maybe she goes out and offers selfies a 5 $ , with a real belgian princess (irony)

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I dont know a lot about the Belgian political system but clearly it IS the courts decision.

It is far from clear that titles of nobility are the prerogative of court decisions. To the contrary, it is perceived as "clear" by the federal government (and legal experts) that titles of nobility are constitutionally subject to the King's (which by convention means the King and Government)'s decision. Please read the quotes in this post:

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-delphine-of-belgium-47954-4.html#post2345896

The constitution doesn’t allow for Delphine to get a dotation.
Only the heir and former monarch get a dotation.
This has been changed in 2014.
Astrid and Laurent’s case is an exstinction scenario as they allready had a dotation in 2014. But they are named specifically in the constitution.

The constitution does not name who is entitled to a royal dotation. It says only:

Article 89

The law determines the civil list for the duration of each reign.​

The rights of Delphine's half-siblings to a dotation are derived from an Act of Parliament.

If the court of appeal can override existing laws concerning titles, it can surely override existing laws concerning dotations.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Belgian law does. Some may not like it, but Delphine and her children perfectly qualify for royal titles & styles under the succession laws as they are written.

No, the succession laws (as I stated in my last post) say nothing of titles.

Article 85

The constitutional powers of the King are hereditary through the direct, natural and legitimate descent from H.M. Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, by order of primogeniture.

The descendant mentioned in the first paragraph who marries without the King’s consent or, in his absence, without the consent of those exercising the King’s powers in cases provided for by the Constitution shall be deprived of his right to the crown.

Nonetheless, this right may be restored by the King or, in his absence, by those exercising the powers of the King in cases provided for by the Constitution, but only with the assent of both Houses.​

Furthermore, as I also explained in my last posting, both the royal decrees regulating the title of Prince and Princess of Belgium and Belgian nobiliary law are understood by legal experts and authorities to reserve titles of nobility to legitimate descendants.

From what has been reported, the court decision seemingly does not change that; it simply creates a special exception for Delphine and her children.

 

[Addapalla]

No, the succession laws (as I stated in my last post) say nothing of titles.

Baudouin's law says -nothing- that would limit titles & styles of Albert's descendants. - His nephew recently had to make a clarification to prevent the RF of the future from including every single remote descendant of Albert. Nothing there at all to deny a natural daughter of Albert and her kids the same entitlements as Astrid & Laurent and their kids. -- Nothing!

 

[titiromi]

Really? I hardly think that Belgian princes are going to remain celibate becuase of this

No but, they will be more relunctant to have an affair certainly

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Baudouin's law says -nothing- that would limit titles & styles of Albert's descendants. - His nephew recently had to make a clarification to prevent the RF of the future from including every single remote descendant of Albert. Nothing there at all to deny a natural daughter of Albert and her kids the same entitlements as Astrid & Laurent and their kids. -- Nothing!

The succession law (quoted in my last post) says nothing about titles and styles at all.

I am not sure if you missed my earlier response to you. It pointed out the part of the royal decrees (not the succession law) which was considered to limit titles and styles to legitimate descendants.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-delphine-of-belgium-47954-5.html#post2346000

 

[Denville]

No but, they will be more relunctant to have an affair certainly

Why? if they are going to get worried that any relationship whether pre marital or extra marital mgiht result in children who then claim a share of the royal prerogative, then all they can do is wait till they marry to have any kind of relationship....

 

[Tatiana Maria]

we do not know what happened behind closed doors, albert's behaviour until January seemed really unlogical so it's obviously likely she blackmailed and pressured the royal family, but only kept her true intentions quiet to the public, media and court.

I was not aware of allegations that she pressured members of the royal family other than Albert himself, other than suing then-Prince Philippe and Princess Astrid to compel them to provide DNA for testing.

A case about damages for Delphine would be interesting, she may have a good case to show how the state has worked against her for years.

Although I am not happy with the outcome (titles for Delphine) in a way I admire her. They tried to ignore her, bully her etc. but she just keeps going.

I was also not aware of allegations that she was bullied by the State or persons other than Albert himself.

I admit that I have not always followed this story closely. Is there more information on the events mentioned in these posts?

 

[Prinsara]

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win”...?

Seems to be a good summary at this point. I'm still stunned.

Can you explain, Tatiana Maria, why the 2015 decree was not written under Philippe's aegis to exclude illegitimate descendants?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Can you explain, Tatiana Maria, why the 2015 decree was not written under Philippe's aegis to exclude illegitimate descendants?

I would be happy to try to clarify if my original answers were unclear, but have you read the answers I provided earlier to your question?

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...er-of-king-albert-ii-6319-92.html#post2345154
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...of-belgium-47954-post2345800.html#post2345800

 

[amaryllus]

Why? if they are going to get worried that any relationship whether pre marital or extra marital mgiht result in children who then claim a share of the royal prerogative, then all they can do is wait till they marry to have any kind of relationship....

More likely and fingers crossed They will Use their big brain and make sure everything is Wrapped up secure and the other party is using BC

 

[Denville]

More likely and fingers crossed They will Use their big brain and make sure everything is Wrapped up secure and the other party is using BC

Nothing to stop a woman who wants to have a child from doing so...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I haven't seen the court ruling yet, but I suspect that, rather than overruling the King's authority, the Court simply followed a literal interpretation of the 2015 Royal Decree which was construed as meaning that the King's (and by extension the government's) intention was that all children and grandchildren of King Albert II should hold the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium with the style of Royal Highness. The blame lies solely on the sloppy drafting of the Royal Decree's text by whoever was responsible for it in the government.

Good point; that would make the decision less radical as in that case it would not be intentionally overruling the Constitution.

But if that is what happened, how did the Court construe the fact that, as discussed in post #69, members of the royal family were officially referred to as princes and princesses even before the original Royal Decree?

How did the Court construe the reaction in 1891 to the death certificate of the heir to the throne? Or the lawmakers' declaration in their report that the purpose of the Royal Decree was to bestow the name of Belgium on existing princes and princesses, as opposed to creating princes and princesses?

To be perfectly honest, I wonder if the Court even considered those questions at all.

 

[Addapalla]

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win”...?
Seems to be a good summary at this point.

Yes - Kudos to Delphine and all women who stand up to powerful well-connected men - and don't back down.

 

[Prinsara]

I would be happy to try to clarify if my original answers were unclear, but have you read the answers I provided earlier to your question?

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...er-of-king-albert-ii-6319-92.html#post2345154
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...of-belgium-47954-post2345800.html#post2345800

I think I see that it was only meant to apply to the descendants who were already princely, but I think it was a bit of hubris by someone to leave it open and seemingly-poorly written in the knowledge of the time and not expect this exact outcome.

 

[amaryllus]

If the man insists he wear a condom it’s unlikely she Will get pregnant. Properly used it’s failure rate is very very low. And pulling out is another sure way.

 

[Addapalla]

Mbruno wrote "The blame lies solely on the sloppy drafting of the Royal Decree's text by whoever was responsible for it in the government."

Exactly. And Delphine's detractors would not be gnashing their teeth over her royal windfall today had more careful legal experts been used in the 1990's. But they were not, so there exists -no legal obstacle- to Delphine and her kids being granted equity with Astrid, Laurent and their kids.

 

[Leslie Mae]

Perhaps the king wants closure. . . . .

Then he should have closed it long ago. None of this needed to happen. All he had to do was acknowledge that this child was his child from the beginning. He has been very stupid.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I think I see that it was only meant to apply to the descendants who were already princely, but I think it was a bit of hubris by someone to leave it open and seemingly-poorly written in the knowledge of the time and not expect this exact outcome.

Point taken. But I noticed that in every instance where Delphine's lawyers, or the royal experts and royal watchers who were in agreement with them, quoted the royal decree, they consistently omitted the words ("the Princes and the Princesses") meant to apply the decree to only descendants who were already princely. If the wording was so poor, would they have relied to such a degree on out-of-context quoting?

A somewhat similar case -though only for a title of nobility - is the ruling of a Dutch court in favor of the illegitimate son of the Duke of Parma, who can now call himself Prince de Bourbon de Parme.

I think the two cases are very different. I understand that the current Dutch nobiliary law, i.e. the Nobility Law of 1994, establishes the legal right of all children of noblemen (including illegitimate or adopted children) to bear the hereditary titles of their father. To deny Hugo the title of his father would have denied him the equal protection of the law and unfairly withheld from him the right of every other person in his position.

But in Belgium, the nobiliary law enforces the norm that titles are inherited only in legitimate male line. The court's decision to grant a hereditary title to Delphine and Delphine alone contradicts the present laws and denies the equal protection of the law to all other sons and daughters in her position.

Mbruno wrote "The blame lies solely on the sloppy drafting of the Royal Decree's text by whoever was responsible for it in the government."

Exactly. And Delphine's detractors would not be gnashing their teeth over her royal windfall today had more careful legal experts been used in the 1990's.

There is no "detraction" from Delphine in pointing out legal sloppiness or in concurring with King Philippe's stated position that royal titles and taxpayer funding are or should be a privilege rather than an entitlement.

And as I said, the original decree was written in the 1890s (specifically, in 1891), not the 1990s.

But they were not, so there exists -no legal obstacle- to Delphine and her kids being granted equity with Astrid, Laurent and their kids.

Again, following that interpretation, why was the Count of Flanders referred to as a prince in 1870?

 

[macedonsky]

they consistently omitted the words ("the Princes and the Princesses") meant to apply the decree to only descendants who were already princely.

It is only your [wrong] interpretation. All three decrees conferred title "prince/ss of Belgium" and said nothing about additional conditions "who were already princes". What about grand dukes of Russia, who are not princes? Arcdukes of Austria who are not princes of Modena?

 

[Denville]

It is only your [wrong] interpretation. All three decrees conferred title "prince/ss of Belgium" and said nothing about additional conditions "who were already princes". What about grand dukes of Russia, who are not princes? Arcdukes of Austria who are not princes of Modena?

I cant imagine that this will be overturned, Im sure the Belgian RF and the PTB in Belgium hardly want an awkward situation where the titles been given and then taken away....

 

[Benjamin]

Princess Delphine met her aunt Princess Marie-Esméralda last year, and they seemed to get along just fine.