Bowing and Curtseying

[andrew]

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At about minute 1 you can see Harry and William bowing to Queen Anne-Marie when receiving a polo award from her:

HARRY The Mysterious Prince part 6.wmv - YouTube

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Why would William and Harry bow to Anne-Marie?

 

[Artemisia]

Because Anne Marie is a Queen (even if former), whereas Harry and William are just Princes. Or, in other words, protocol, respect.
For the same reason, Kate curtseys to Crown Princess Margarita of Romania, Queen Anne Marie, and other royal ladies from former monarchies.

Current monarchies tend to be much more uptight when it comes to former royal houses; as far as they are concerned, once a King - always a King. You might have noticed how in the official portrait taken before the Lunch for Monarchs, former Sovereigns (Michael of Romania, Simeon of Bulgaria...) were given great prominence - greater, in fact, than reigning ones for they were seated immediately next to the Queen. That's because as far as Royal Families are concerned, Michael and Simeon have been Kings since 1927 (1940) and 1943 respectively, and the fact their countries are no longer monarchies is somewhat irrelevant.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Once a King always a King? What exactly are Michael and Simeon King of? Not Romania or Bulgaria thats for sure.

 

[Artemisia]

As far as monarchies are concerned, they are. Have you noticed that the former Monarchs are addressed by their full titles and styles by virtually all current monarchies, and most other countries too? It's like being a marine; there is no such thing as "ex". Now, Crown Princess Margarita will never be Queen Margarita (unless monarchy in Romania is reinstated) because she didn't hold the title at the time monarchy in the country was abolished. Her father though will remain a King for the rest of his life.

 

[AdmirerUS]

As far as monarchies are concerned, they are. Have you noticed that the former Monarchs are addressed by their full titles and styles by virtually all current monarchies, and most other countries too? It's like being a marine; there is no such thing as "ex". Now, Crown Princess Margarita will never be Queen Margarita (unless monarchy in Romania is reinstated) because she didn't hold the title at the time monarchy in the country was abolished. Her father though will remain a King for the rest of his life.

I think the DOE was asking about real life. When the country you rule decides not to be ruled, no matter how illegal, unfair, usurper-ous, whatever - you no longer rule a country. There is some other legal platform that rules the country.

I do applaud fellow royals/ex-royals when they stand for monarchies that have been illegally, if factually, overthrown. But that does not necessarily incite the locals to take up arms and reinstate the monarchy.

 

[Dman]

Yeah, the royals make sure they give respect to all the Monarchs, even if they are former Kings and Queens.

If I met Queen Anne Marie, I would bow my head too.

 

[NGalitzine]

Well Americans still accord Jimmy Carter, George HW Bush, Bill Clinton and George W Bush the title of President even though they no longer hold office so there isn't much difference.

 

[Artemisia]

I think the DOE was asking about real life. When the country you rule decides not to be ruled, no matter how illegal, unfair, usurper-ous, whatever - you no longer rule a country. There is some other legal platform that rules the country.

I do applaud fellow royals/ex-royals when they stand for monarchies that have been illegally, if factually, overthrown. But that does not necessarily incite the locals to take up arms and reinstate the monarchy.

I understand and fully agree with that; the people of Greece no longer recognise Constantine and Anne Marie as their King and Queen, so they are not legally monarchs of anything. I was explaining the situation from the point of view of monarchies as I understand it.

 

[Roslyn]

Well Americans still accord Jimmy Carter, George HW Bush, Bill Clinton and George W Bush the title of President even though they no longer hold office so there isn't much difference.

This habit has always amused me. Australians continue to accord our former Prime Ministers the same level of contempt accorded to them while they were in office. They're lucky to just get referred to as "Howard" or "Hawke" or "Keating" without some expletive in front of it. At best it's Mr, and that's only formally.

 

[Rocketmom]

Similarly, former ambassadors are still called ambassador, former governors are still called govenor, former military officers are still called by their rank and former athletic team coaches are still called coach. Makes no sense to me either.

I do applaud fellow royals/ex-royals when they stand for monarchies that have been illegally, if factually, overthrown...

How would a monarchy ever be overthrown legally? I suppose only if the monarch itself decided to eliminate the monarchy. But by the very nature of a monarchy, wouldn't any ending of it by the masses be illegal?

 

[Trillian]

This habit has always amused me. Australians continue to accord our former Prime Ministers the same level of contempt accorded to them while they were in office. They're lucky to just get referred to as "Howard" or "Hawke" or "Keating" without some expletive in front of it. At best it's Mr, and that's only formally.

To be fair, they are sometimes referred to as. "former Prime Minister" when being spoken about in the 3rd person

 

[vkrish]

Hey..

Look at this pic..
Prime minister meets princess: The symbolism of a royal birthday party - PhotoBlog
I lifted this from Mahachakri thread.
Imagine who that woman is: The Prime Minister of that country!
Now guys, I respect Mahachakri a lot, and I know that tradition and all, but the Prime Minister herself doing this way, that too not the King/Queen/CP.. I certainly feel its a bit over-the-board.
And BTW, she could have worn a little longer skirt for that event..it is such a big risk..

 

[theodemaxx]

TIH Prince and Princess Akishino of Japan bowed and curtseyed to HRH The Crown Prince of Thailand and HRH Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn of Thailand at the Cremetion Ceremony of HRH The Princess Mother.
(go to 1:20)

The cremation ceremony 15 - YouTube

I still don't know why Princess Akishino curtseyed to Princess Sirindhorn... (But I saw, on the news, that she just did a normal hand shaking to Princess Sirindhorn at the last time they met in Japan, though.)

 

[paola]

How would a monarchy ever be overthrown legally? I suppose only if the monarch itself decided to eliminate the monarchy. But by the very nature of a monarchy, wouldn't any ending of it by the masses be illegal?

By changing the constitution we can legally end the monarchy. I don't think that it will happen in the near future in the Netherlands, but it can be done.

 

[Artemisia]

TIH Prince and Princess Akishino of Japan bowed and curtseyed to HRH The Crown Prince of Thailand and HRH Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn of Thailand at the Cremetion Ceremony of HRH The Princess Mother.
(go to 1:20)

The cremation ceremony 15 - YouTube

I still don't know why Princess Akishino curtseyed to Princess Sirindhorn... (But I saw, on the news, that she just did a normal hand shaking to Princess Sirindhorn at the last time they met in Japan, though.)

Prince and Princess Akishino bowed and curtseyed to the Crown Prince and Princess for a very simple reason: the latter couples has a higher rank. The Crown Prince is the eldest son of the Sovereign (Heir to the Throne) and his wife takes her status from him. Prince Akishino is a younger son of the Sovereign and his wife takes her status from him.

Prince Akishino has exactly the same ranking as Princess Sirindhorn (younger children of the Sovereign), so obviously he wouldn't bow to her, and neither does his wife have to curtsey to the Princess.

 

[Princess Yasmine S]

In the Scriptures a 'Bow' served the object set before it; and this is a powerful symbol, offering 'Peace' between forces.
A head curtsy is a substitute, for moments that are fleeting and offer no-time for Formality. The 'head-curtsy' also offers immobile person, the opportunity to honour the object admired, a Salutation.

 

[TomBert]

I suppose a monarchy cannot be "overthrown" legally because overthrow implies a rebellion of some sort. But a monarchy can quite easily be abolished through legal constitutional changes, e.g. Greece, Italy, South Africa etc. (though, of course, one can argue endlessly about the legitimacy of the legal process).

 

[Princess Yasmine S]

A monarchy can be abolished through Constitutional changes? Well, this has an impact on my thinking?
I am a person; i have a piece of paper that has ink crypt on it, that verifies a name, birth date and place of Registry; yet when I wanted to verify my 'Being', the Authoritative Head, directing the affairs of Personage, decided the evidence was insufficient? A Card is a Card, but the power is not in the Card, nor in the symbols, the power is in the Illusion, constructed by the user!
Illusions built of Money are in depth particles that require our focus to deepen their value, and too, join them with out sitting behind sulking?

 

[Dman]

Crown Princess Mary and Princess Marie Curtsey to HM Margrethe II:
silver linings

 

[theodemaxx]

Look at this pic..
Prime minister meets princess: The symbolism of a royal birthday party - PhotoBlog
I lifted this from Mahachakri thread.
Imagine who that woman is: The Prime Minister of that country!
Now guys, I respect Mahachakri a lot, and I know that tradition and all, but the Prime Minister herself doing this way, that too not the King/Queen/CP.. I certainly feel its a bit over-the-board.
And BTW, she could have worn a little longer skirt for that event..it is such a big risk..

I saw Princess Srirasmi - the Consort of CP - and Princess Siriwannawari - the second daughter of CP and his second (ex-) wife - did the same thing to Princess Sirindhorn to pay their respects at the Cremation Ceremony of Princess Bejaratana. However, Princess Bajrakitiyabha - the daughter of CP and Princess Soamsawali, the first wife - just stood aside, then did a curtsey and waved her hand before leaving.

I think because Princess Sirindhorn have been treating her since she was young, so they are very close.

 

[Darnius]

Hi! I'm a newbie in this site & I love about curtseying.
Please take a look at the pic:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-szqeOD2N_UM/UPGTwOmzscI/AAAAAAAAgr4/RAXhLXsOj4g/s1600/foto%25C4%259Fraf+5.jpg
I have a question: Why did Princess Charlene must curtsey to a bishop?
Thanks for the explanation!

NB: Sorry about my English, I'm still learning.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

I was raised catholic but I can't tell if that is a bishop or a cardinal. Cardinals are considered princes of the church and I was taught to curtsey to them. Although Charlene may be considered equal to this man she may be curtsying out of respect for his position in the church. If I was still catholic it is something I would do.

The more I look at the picture I think the colors indicate a bishop but he may also be an archbishop or hold some other authority in the church.

Further research shows he is an archbishop and personal secretary of the pope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_G%C3%A4nswein

He is also an Honorary Prelate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_Prelate

Current rules of the church to do not require that someone genuflect(the word the church uses) to a bishop but they may do so and may kiss his ring like people do to the pope.

 

[Nice Nofret]

His dress indicates, that he is at least an Archbishop (the headgear is only worn from Archbishops upwards) and the color also.

 

[Roslyn]

I was raised catholic but I can't tell if that is a bishop or a cardinal.

A quick google tells me that the colour of the zucchetto (skullcap) will tell you this. Cardinals wear a scarlet one, and bishops wear a violet one. Now that fella looks like he's wearing cerise to me, but I'm guessing it's actually supposed to be violet.

 

[Darnius]

Thank you Noble Consort Ming, Nice Nofret, & Roslyn

 

[vkrish]

The future of 'curtsey'

Hey I actually thought of starting a new thread, but this is a better place. Seeing the Queen's arrival at St.Pauls for thanksgiving, and also earlier in the year at Westminister, I was appalled by the way women have almost 'forbidden' themselves from curtseying Her Majesty. Curtseying has rather become an exception, than a rule. And these are the women, who are supposed to be 'distinguished' (lawmakers, public servants, nobility), and expected to show basic deference to the Queen (just traditional/cultural, not subservience and all that crap). If these people only dont give a damn, then how on earth can we expect 'commoners' to do that?
Do you think 'curtsey' is on the verge of becoming extinct very soon?
I doubt it will stay till the end of Queen's reign and pass on to Charles' reign..
Do you think 'King' William will be ever curtsied by someone other than his aunt/cousins/daughters?
What is the future of curtsey? And how many years more does it have before becoming a 'funny ridiculous ancient classist relic'?
Mind you I am speaking evrything with regard to 'curtseying the monarch'..not royalty, nobility etc..
I will be interested to know British point of view. I know it is much better in Benmark, though gone in Dutch, Sweden etc.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Bowing and Curtseying to a monarch is optional, it's not compulsory and shouldn't be. Most people do it out of tradition and respect, if you neither belief in tradition nor respect The Queen or the monarchy then what's the point.

I know a lot of people, especially in the commonwealth realms that see no point in curtseying or bowing to someone who comes to visit them once in a while and lives thousands of miles away.

 

[Roslyn]

Seeing the Queen's arrival at St.Pauls for thanksgiving, and also earlier in the year at Westminister, I was appalled by the way women have almost 'forbidden' themselves from curtseying Her Majesty.

vkrish, did the women of whom you speak make any sign of deference? Did they incline their heads at all in a slight bow as a man would be likely to do? I ask this because I would bow to HM and certain members of her family, just as I bow to the judge as a sign of respect when I enter and leave a courtroom. No-one expects women lawyers to curtsey in court, and I'm not going to curtsey to anyone, because I think it's a ridiculous and anachronistic behaviour. I'll do what the men do, and I thought maybe the women you're talking about feel the same way.

 

[vkrish]

Lumutqueen, I clearly mentioned I was talking about the British women, not the ones in the Commonwealth realms.
Roslyn, I was talking about lawmakers, not lawyers. Lawmakers, I meant, MPs,ministers etc. When the sole woman Prime Minister made wonderful curtsies each time, I dont understand why these females have so much arrogance to show their respect to their Head of State, the symbol of their nation and polity..