Prince Gustav, Princess Carina of Berleburg and Family, Current Events 3, June 2022 -

For 99% this baby will be Princess Benedikte's last grandchild.

wonderful news! Congratulations to the entire family on the new addition!!

I am so very happy for them!

hereditarytitles said:

I am happy for them and hope that they have a long and healthy life to enjoy their children. But I sometimes wonder what will be when the children are in their teens, both parents will be around 70 years old which might be a challenge .
I still cannot get over the fact that this couple couldn't have married when they were ready for marriage and had to fight for years to get their legal rights as head of the House of Sayn Wittgenstein. All that because of a very outdated will of an old man, and that happening in the 21st century? If it hadn't been for all those complications they could have been happy parents years ago.

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I agree with you re having very old parents / very likely losing them as younger adults. But for Gustav it will be a blessing to have a sibling in this situation. Obviously his parents thought the same and redid the process straight away.

It is sad they could not have Children when they were young for succession reasons. Old Parents are good parents and now a little sister , how happy for them.

CyrilVladisla said:

It will be interesting to learn the name of the new Princess.

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The family announced Gustav Albrecht's name immediately, so I am not sure why the name has not been released this time. But as Gustav Albrecht was named after his great-grandfather, it would be appropriate to also give his sister a historic family name. Gustav's grandmothers were named Margareta and Ingrid.

maria-olivia said:

It is sad they could not have Children when they were young for succession reasons.

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But again, under the 1943 testament, having children out of wedlock with a non-noble would not disqualify the parent from the succession.

Archduchess Zelia said:

Benedikte doesn't strike me as particularly narrow-minded person, so I'm sure she loves all her grandchildren equally for who they are – no matter how they look or how they were brought into this world.

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I am certain the posters above were only wondering about Princess Benedikte's thoughts on surrogacy, not questioning her love for her two grandchildren who were born from a surrogate mother.

I always find it interesting when people blame Gustav’s grandfather for keeping him from marrying Carina. He could have married her whenever he wanted but he didn’t want to part with the estate/money. He made a choice to hold off.

victor1319 said:

Modern times... I must confess, I am very much from yesterday...

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I am not sure it is about modernity for Gustav. There has been a double standard displayed between his statements and his actions. When his cousin Ludwig-Ferdinand claimed Gustav had violated the spirit of the 1943 testamentary clause disqualifying heirs married to spouses of non-noble birth (which, again, was not a Nazi idea but a centuries-old tradition in German noble families), Gustav issued a statement to the press in which he implied that Ludwig-Ferdinand supported Nazi ideas (!). Subsequently, Gustav argued in court that even if the judges were to agree with Ludwig-Ferdinand that Gustav had committed a breach of the marriage clause, they ought to overturn the marriage clause by means of Section 138(1) of the Civil Code, which stipulates that "A legal transaction that offends common decency is void." (Ultimately, the judges ruled that Gustav had fully complied with the marriage clause.)

However, as was discussed extensively earlier in the thread, surrogacy has been made a criminal offense in Germany because it is viewed there as unethical (Gustav and Carina used a surrogate mother in the United States). Accordingly, surrogacy agreements have been ruled by German courts to be in violation of Civil Code Section 138(1) - the very same law which Gustav attempted to use against his cousin Ludwig-Ferdinand in their succession dispute.


Thus, it is difficult to avoid concluding that Gustav's support of Section 138(1)'s morality clause for legal agreements extends only to agreements which infringe on his life (by forcing him to choose between a large estate and marrying when he wants), not to agreements which benefit him (by enabling him to wait until marriage to have children regardless of how long it might take).

crm2317 said:

I always find it interesting when people blame Gustav’s grandfather for keeping him from marrying Carina. He could have married her whenever he wanted but he didn’t want to part with the estate/money. He made a choice to hold off.

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Exactly. They were also perfectly able to have children the natural way. I guess the love for titles and money comes first.

Ah, come on. How far would you be willing to go to keep your estate your fortune and the future of the children you certainly would like to have. Especially if you believe it's yours by right.
Keep in mind that earth of Prince Richard's grave hadn't settled before Gustav was sued and basically asked to vacate the premises and get lost. - That process sure took it's time and Gustav and Carina were forced to separate for a long period on top of the strain of going through the whole ordeal.
You can also turn the question around: How low are you prepared to go to evict someone from their childhood home, snatch their fortune and future away from them and deny them the right to happiness - which includes getting married and having home-made children.

Tatiana Maria said:

The family announced Gustav Albrecht's name immediately, so I am not sure why the name has not been released this time. But as Gustav Albrecht was named after his great-grandfather, it would be appropriate to also give his sister a historic family name. Gustav's grandmothers were named Margareta and Ingrid.

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Gustav Albrecht's birth was also officially announced by the DRF while this time around, it seems like Billed Bladet inquired and Gustav and Carina's spokesperson confirmed. Maybe they haven't picked a name yet and that's why they hadn't announced the birth yet.

Tatiana Maria said:

I am certain the posters above were only wondering about Princess Benedikte's thoughts on surrogacy, not questioning her love for her two grandchildren who were born from a surrogate mother.

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I don't know. To feel some type of way about the way someone was brought into this world or (as you conveniently left out) the way someone looks as it was insinuated that Benedikte secretly does, doesn't strike me as particularly loving (or in character for Benedikte at all).

Hannelore said:

Exactly. They were also perfectly able to have children the natural way. I guess the love for titles and money comes first.

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Interesting. You can say that about virtually every royal. William and Catherine dated for 10 years before marrying during which they were perfectly able to have children out of wedlock. By your logic, I guess the love for titles and money came first for them as well?

Archduchess Zelia said:

I don't know. To feel some type of way about the way someone was brought into this world or (as you conveniently left out) the way someone looks as it was insinuated that Benedikte secretly does, doesn't strike me as particularly loving (or in character for Benedikte at all).

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I "conveniently left out" (to use your phrasing) the comment on clothing choices because in my opinion your response was appropriate in that context.

I do not believe any previous commenter insinuated that they knew Princess Benedikte's views on surrogacy; at most it was speculation. In view of the fact that until recently Princess Benedikte spent the majority of her time in Germany, a country where surrogacy is not only commonly viewed as exploitative but is also a federal crime, the speculation does not seem implausible on its face.

We will have to agree to disagree on "To feel some type of way about the way someone was brought into this world [...] doesn't strike me as particularly loving". In my opinion it was not unloving when, for example, royal watchers criticized King Albert II of Belgium for having an extramarital affair, even though a child was brought into the world from the affair.

Archduchess Zelia said:

Interesting. You can say that about virtually every royal. William and Catherine dated for 10 years before marrying during which they were perfectly able to have children out of wedlock. By your logic, I guess the love for titles and money came first for them as well?

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Neither William and Catherine nor their admirers have, as far as I know, accused others of denying them their right to marry for ten years, so I do not see the comparison. And unlike the children of Gustav and Carina, the children of William and Catherine would have been materially affected by being born out of wedlock, because it would have legally disqualified them from inheriting the British throne.

That said, titles could not have been involved in their decision: No matter when Carina had married Gustav, she would have been entitled under German law to adopt the feminine version of his surname (Princess of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg). Likewise, the couple could have elected for any children they had out of wedlock to take their father's name, including the Prince/Princess title.

Muhler said:

Keep in mind that earth of Prince Richard's grave hadn't settled before Gustav was sued and basically asked to vacate the premises and get lost. -

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Gustav was the first applicant to sue to claim the estate, and he was never ordered to vacate his premises. The order of events as set out in the judgments was as follows.

March 13, 2017: Richard (the father of Gustav and the first heir to the estate of Gustav's grandfather Gustav Albrecht) died.
April 24, 2017: Otto-Ludwig (a cousin of Richard and the older brother of Ludwig-Ferdinand) declared that he renounced his succession rights to the estate of Gustav Albrecht.
May 9, 2017: Gustav petitioned the probate court of Bad Berleburg for a certificate of inheritance declaring him to be the next heir to the estate of Gustav Albrecht.
May 11, 2017: Ludwig-Ferdinand petitioned the probate court of Bad Berleburg for a certificate of inheritance declaring him to be the next heir to the estate of Gustav Albrecht.
January 16, 2018: The probate court of Bad Berleburg appointed the lawyer Jochen König to serve as temporary curator of Gustav Albrecht's estate until the inheritance dispute was settled.
August 1, 2018: Jochen König issued a denial of a story in Bunte which claimed that Ludwig-Ferdinand's daughter Theodora would move into Berleburg castle (which was, of course, part of Gustav Albrecht's disputed estate). Mr. König stated that Gustav was still residing there and nobody else was moving in.


Decision of the Agricultural Court of Bad Berleburg (8 April 2019): openJur

Judgment and reasons from the decision of the Regional Appeals Court in Hamm (27 July 2020): https://viewer.content-select.com/p...5074efaf5cc104c2b4cb6&frontend=1&language=deu

Muhler said:

That process sure took it's time and Gustav and Carina were forced to separate for a long period on top of the strain of going through the whole ordeal.

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Gustav and Carina made their own decision to temporarily live in separate countries. From the court documents, it appears their course of action was an attempt to defeat Ludwig-Ferdinand's argument that they were in a "de facto marriage": Gustav argued that his relationship with Carina was not equivalent to a marriage because they had no power over each other's assets and they lived apart. Nevertheless, they were not compelled to live apart and it made no difference to the legal outcome, as the courts ruled that it was irrelevant whether their relationship was similar to marriage or not.

I assume their attorney advised them to live apart. In advance, they didn't know how the courts would rule and whether that argument would stand or not. So, I don't think the outcome is leading in interpreting their action. They clearly felt they had no other option if they didn't want to risk Gustav loosing his inheritance - so, while technically they were not forced, they did so because based on the available evidence and advice at that time, they were compelled to do so.

@Tatiana Marie, that doesn't really change my point.
As you point out there was a lawsuit on 11th May 2017.

Gustav and Carina could not know what the court would rule, which meant they had to "separate" in order to stand stronger in court. - Considering that they de facto had lived as a married couple for years, that's a pretty drastic thing to happen in anyone's lives. It wouldn't exactly have helped their case, I imagine, if they were to have a child in the middle of the whole ordeal.
I have no particular desire to try and speculate in when Carina was unable to conceive but it might have been during that period.

Anyway, Carina and Gustav did no have a crystal ball, they could not know with absolute certainty when the court would rule and what the outcome would be.

And it's not a question of giving up a collection of three Picassos and one Renoir in order to get married and have all the children they want. As I understand it Berleburg is one of the largest private estates in Germany. That's serious money! Not to mention serious history, and Gustav's childhood home. You don't give up that, just like that, not even in the most romantic fantasy.

Muhler said:

Keep in mind that earth of Prince Richard's grave hadn't settled before Gustav was sued and basically asked to vacate the premises and get lost.

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Tatiana Maria said:

Gustav was the first applicant to sue to claim the estate, and he was never ordered to vacate his premises. The order of events as set out in the judgments was as follows. [...]

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Muhler said:

@Tatiana Marie, that doesn't really change my point.
As you point out there was a lawsuit on 11th May 2017.

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I read your comment "Keep in mind that earth of Prince Richard's grave hadn't settled before Gustav was sued" to mean that you considered Ludwig-Ferdinand had disrespected the late Prince Richard by not waiting longer after Richard's death. My point was that Richard's own son filed his petition even earlier than Ludwig-Ferdinand (by two days), so he must have felt the timing was acceptable. Of course, Gustav was vocally angry with Ludwig-Ferdinand for contesting his entitlement to the Berleburg estate, but I don't believe the timing was the issue.

I think we all agree that it was due to Ludwig-Ferdinand's court challenge that Carina chose to move out for a time, but as you said that "Gustav was sued and basically asked to vacate the premises and get lost", I wished to clarify that there was no legal order for Gustav (or Carina) to vacate the Berleburg estate and Gustav in fact remained there.

crm2317 said:

I always find it interesting when people blame Gustav’s grandfather for keeping him from marrying Carina. He could have married her whenever he wanted but he didn’t want to part with the estate/money. He made a choice to hold off.

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And in fairness to Gustav, he himself seems not to fault his grandfather for the noble-marriage clause for the most part, seeing as he named his son after him. To judge from his public statements and interviews, Gustav's anger seems to be primarily directed at his cousin Ludwig-Ferdinand for attempting to have him disinherited and claim the estate in his place. (During an earlier discussion in this thread I expressed the opinion that Gustav was likely responsible for the toxic false accusations about his grandfather which are everywhere on the internet, but after rereading his press release from 2019, I think his "Nazi" insinuations were likely targeted at Ludwig-Ferdinand rather than his grandfather.)

Tatiana Maria said:

I "conveniently left out" (to use your phrasing) the comment on clothing choices because in my opinion your response was appropriate in that context.

I do not believe any previous commenter insinuated that they knew Princess Benedikte's views on surrogacy; at most it was speculation. In view of the fact that until recently Princess Benedikte spent the majority of her time in Germany, a country where surrogacy is not only commonly viewed as exploitative but is also a federal crime, the speculation does not seem implausible on its face.

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It is simply nonsensical to assume that a resident of a country must agree with all the politics of said country. Gustav is a German citizen. Are we speculating he feels uneasy about using a surrogate as well?

Besides, while surrogacy within Germany indeed is illegal, there's absolutely nothing illegal about using an international surrogate as G&C have done.

Tatiana Maria said:

We will have to agree to disagree on "To feel some type of way about the way someone was brought into this world [...] doesn't strike me as particularly loving". In my opinion it was not unloving when, for example, royal watchers criticized King Albert II of Belgium for having an extramarital affair, even though a child was brought into the world from the affair.

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This is such a wildly far-fetched comparison Are you actually arguing that a married couple having a child through surrogacy (for all we know using Gustav's sperm and Carina's embryo) is on par with two independently married individuals having a child as a result of an extramarital affair? If so, I think that says a lot about how unnuanced the criticism towards G&C is. Who exactly is G&C hurting in the proces of their method of becoming parents?

Tatiana Maria said:

Neither William and Catherine nor their admirers have, as far as I know, accused others of denying them their right to marry for ten years, so I do not see the comparison. And unlike the children of Gustav and Carina, the children of William and Catherine would have been materially affected by being born out of wedlock, because it would have legally disqualified them from inheriting the British throne.

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I'm not saying they have. I'm saying @Hannelore's logic is applicable to virtually every royal – let royals within the immediate line of succession to the throne. As such, ensuring titles, succession, inheritance for their children were probably a large factor in both William & Catherine and Gustav & Carina's respective decision to wait until they were married to have children. But somehow only G&C are faulted for it

But you're arguing Gustav Albrecht and his sister would not have been affected by being born out of wedlock? That Gustav Albrecht could one day have inherited the headship of the house of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and the Berleburg estate even if he had been born out of wedlock? I'd like to hear how you make that work!

Tatiana Maria said:

I read your comment "Keep in mind that earth of Prince Richard's grave hadn't settled before Gustav was sued" to mean that you considered Ludwig-Ferdinand had disrespected the late Prince Richard by not waiting longer after Richard's death. My point was that Richard's own son filed his petition even earlier than Ludwig-Ferdinand (by two days), so he must have felt the timing was acceptable. Of course, Gustav was vocally angry with Ludwig-Ferdinand for contesting his entitlement to the Berleburg estate, but I don't believe the timing was the issue.

I think we all agree that it was due to Ludwig-Ferdinand's court challenge that Carina chose to move out for a time, but as you said that "Gustav was sued and basically asked to vacate the premises and get lost", I wished to clarify that there was no legal order for Gustav (or Carina) to vacate the Berleburg estate and Gustav in fact remained there.




And in fairness to Gustav, he himself seems not to fault his grandfather for the noble-marriage clause for the most part, seeing as he named his son after him. To judge from his public statements and interviews, Gustav's anger seems to be primarily directed at his cousin Ludwig-Ferdinand for attempting to have him disinherited and claim the estate in his place. (During an earlier discussion in this thread I expressed the opinion that Gustav was likely responsible for the toxic false accusations about his grandfather which are everywhere on the internet, but after rereading his press release from 2019, I think his "Nazi" insinuations were likely targeted at Ludwig-Ferdinand rather than his grandfather.)

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First of all the issue about who inherits Berleburg and under what condition should ideally have been settled long time ago. It wasn't though.
Okay, when the issue became unavoidable after the death of Prince Richard wouldn't it have been a most natural (and correct) thing to do, to lay formal claim on Berleburg as Gustav did? And in that way see if anyone objected to him (and by extension his future wife Carina we must assume) taking over Berleburg. Well, someone did!
It could perhaps have been settled before the death of Prince Richard? It could perhaps have been taken to court before the death of Prince Richard? Or someone could have thought: Hmm, perhaps my greed... I mean, my claim for Schloss Berleburg shouldn't ruin the happiness of two people and we'll drop the whole thing.
But no, so a lengthy court battle went on.
- And as I illustrated that all began before grass even began to grow on Prince Richard's grave.

So yes, I don't believe the timing was in good taste. It should have been settled a long time ago.

Also, if you go to court and win a battle about possession of a property, you usually don't allow the previous occupant to stay on afterwards. And keep in mind that Gustav was not allowed to make major changes to the estate while the whole thing went on. Berleburg was effectively put under administration with Gustav reduced to manager.
So again, yes, Gustav was told to get packing and that would indeed have been the consequence, had he lost in court. - Oh, and BTW in the meantime you, Gustav, can't see or produce children with your wife in anything but name, while the whole proceeding goes on. That could potentially seriously screw things up for you. - Just a little extra stab in the ribs, free of charge.

I sure would be pretty crossed too had I been Gustav. In fact I think I would have spend the long evenings after having secretly talked with Carina on the phone making voodoo dolls of Ludwig Ferdinand.

- To sum up my opinion: I think it was a nasty and unfair affair.
The whole issue of inheritance and under what conditions ought to have been settled long ago. A settlement within the family should have been reached long ago as well.
It's not my impression that Ludwig Ferdinand and that branch of the family are in immediate danger of ending up on the street in poverty any day soon, so in my eyes that was pure greed. Greed that very easily could have ruined the relationship between Gustav and Carina and in any way it sure caused them both heartache and worries as well as putting their lives on stand-by for a considerable period. So I'm not a great admirer of Ludwig Ferdinand and should he run for office as saint, he wouldn't get my vote.

I don't know if the ones who started the Royal Forums should agree , that Posters knowing personaly any Royals , may judge their way of doing with such private details.

Archduchess Zelia said:

But you're arguing Gustav Albrecht and his sister would not have been affected by being born out of wedlock? That Gustav Albrecht could one day have inherited the headship of the house of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and the Berleburg estate even if he had been born out of wedlock? I'd like to hear how you make that work!

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It is of course not me who "makes it work" for children born out of wedlock but the laws of 21st-century Germany. As things stand, the children are born out of wedlock in the eyes of German law, which considers the surrogate mother to be the original legal mother and Carina the adoptive mother. But as explained in previous posts, that will not bar them from their inheritance, as the will is no longer applicable and current German inheritance law does not discriminate against out-of-wedlock children.

Archduchess Zelia said:

It is simply nonsensical to assume that a resident of a country must agree with all the politics of said country.

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I agree. Fortunately, no one has made such an assumption. However, your response to previous posters made the assumption that a resident of a country could not possibly agree with the politics of said country. I disagreed with your assumption.

Archduchess Zelia said:

This is such a wildly far-fetched comparison Are you actually arguing that a married couple having a child through surrogacy (for all we know using Gustav's sperm and Carina's embryo) is on par with two independently married individuals having a child as a result of an extramarital affair?

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Obviously not, but are you arguing that a child born from an extramarital affair is less deserving of a loving grandmother than a child born from a surrogate mother to a married couple?

To reiterate, I was pointing out that your logic of "To feel some type of way about the way someone was brought into this world [...] doesn't strike me as particularly loving" would mean it is unloving to have feelings about an extramarital affair - since that is certainly a "way someone was brought into this world".

Archduchess Zelia said:

Who exactly is G&C hurting in the proces of their method of becoming parents?

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I cannot speak for the German public and lawmakers, but from my reading, it appears the foremost concern behind the law is for women being financially pressured into becoming surrogate mothers. Naturally, that does not mean every German thinks Gustav and Carina personally are engaged in financial exploitation, but that is the policy justification for the law.

Archduchess Zelia said:

I'm not saying they have. I'm saying @Hannelore's logic is applicable to virtually every royal – let royals within the immediate line of succession to the throne. As such, ensuring titles, succession, inheritance for their children were probably a large factor in both William & Catherine and Gustav & Carina's respective decision to wait until they were married to have children. But somehow only G&C are faulted for it

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I understand your point now, but regarding your point about criticism: Other royal and non-royal couples most probably factor issues such as inheritance laws and wills into their decisions on marriage and children, but somehow it is only Gustav's grandfather who is faulted for "keeping them from marrying". (I have never heard any royal watcher claim that British legislators kept William from having children before marriage by not repealing the ban on illegitimate children succeeding to the throne.) So it is only necessary in Gustav and Carina's case to point out that technically they had a choice - because for (most) other royal couples, that is taken for granted by everyone.

I'm surprised by those who are questioning Gustav's speed in going to court to secure the inheritance. He waited almost two months after his father died, which seems almost slow to act, rather than too fast. (If you think it is in "bad taste" to act quickly, my guess is you've never been the executor of an estate!)

I don't have a link to the citation, but I do recall Gustav saying that he was reduced to living in just a very small apartment at the castle and restricted from other parts while the suit was going on.

As far as why he avoided marrying and having children with Carina before the estate settled, I'd point out that allowing himself to be disqualified from the inheritance could have had far-reaching implications that we don't know about. For instance, since Gustav was the estate's owner since birth, would losing that status have thrown his parents, sisters, and aunts (at least one of them) out of a home (and their businesses)?

It would have been pretty heartless to risk all that when his father was still alive.

With respect to the couple's use of surrogates, I don't understand why this is even being discussed. Carina is an American citizen, whose children were born in the United States, where (in most states) surrogacy is legal. The German Federal Court of Justice ruled 10 years ago that it cannot overturn an American court that assigns parentage in surrogacy cases despite German law and German citizens being among the parents.

(Here's the case: https://conflictoflaws.net/2015/ger...ustice-on-surrogacy-and-german-public-policy/ )

I think the indisputable fact is that there were legal inheritance challenges that factored into why Gustav and Carina delayed their marriage and family much longer than they would have liked. That is agreed to by everyone, yes?

Therefore, I think we can simply be happy the issue resolved and they were able to have a family anyway. I hope we get to find out the name of their daughter soon.

kalnel said:

For instance, since Gustav was the estate's owner since birth, would losing that status have thrown his parents, sisters, and aunts (at least one of them) out of a home (and their businesses)? It would have been pretty heartless to risk all that when his father was still alive.

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Gustav was not the estate's owner since birth. It is stated in the judgments linked abovethread that Gustav's father Richard was issued a certificate of inheritance declaring him the owner of the estate by the probate court of Bad Berleburg on December 31, 1970. Richard remained the owner of the estate until his death on March 13, 2017. Following his death, both Gustav and Ludwig-Ferdinand asserted claims to be the new owner. Gustav was issued a certificate of inheritance declaring him the owner of the estate by the probate court of Bad Berleburg on October 30, 2020.

Muhler said:

And keep in mind that Gustav was not allowed to make major changes to the estate while the whole thing went on.

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At the time it was unclear to the courts whether Gustav or Ludwig-Ferdinand was lawfully the new owner of the estate, and I assume that only the recognized owner would have had the right to make major changes. Perhaps that was also connected to Gustav's statement that he was reduced to living in a very small apartment at the castle while the suit was going on, per kalnel's recollection.

Muhler said:

- To sum up my opinion: I think it was a nasty and unfair affair.
The whole issue of inheritance and under what conditions ought to have been settled long ago. A settlement within the family should have been reached long ago as well.

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In the interview with the estate's provisional manager which I referred to above, he also mentioned that he would like to gather the family members around the table to discuss a resolution. I am not sure if that means they had never attempted to do so on their own.

Muhler said:

So I'm not a great admirer of Ludwig Ferdinand and should he run for office as saint, he wouldn't get my vote.

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I am no great admirer of his either, but he at least never issued any statements to the press insinuating that his cousin was using Nazi ideas, as Gustav did to him (unless I have misinterpreted that press release).

Tatiana Maria said:

Gustav was not the estate's owner since birth. It is stated in the judgments linked abovethread that Gustav's father Richard was issued a certificate of inheritance declaring him the owner of the estate by the probate court of Bad Berleburg on December 31, 1970. Richard remained the owner of the estate until his death on March 13, 2017. Following his death, both Gustav and Ludwig-Ferdinand asserted claims to be the new owner. Gustav was issued a certificate of inheritance declaring him the owner of the estate by the probate court of Bad Berleburg on October 30, 2020.

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I believe you're mistaken about the ownership. Gustav was declared the owner when his grandfather was declared dead in 1969. Richard was head of the house, but not the estate owner.

Here are some references from credible sources:

With all due respect, I cannot see why we should consider the actual courts of law which investigated the case, as well as Germany's court records, as well as the actual text of Gustav Albrecht's will, to be less credible than blogs and Billed-Bladet.

Here is the quotation from the ruling of the OLG Hamm (Higher Regional Court of Hamm) regarding Richard's certification as the first heir of his father's estate:


Link to the ruling.


Below is the quotation from Gustav Albrecht's will (quoted in the same judgment), stipulating that his eldest son (Richard) was his heir:

HRHHermione said:

I think the indisputable fact is that there were legal inheritance challenges that factored into why Gustav and Carina delayed their marriage and family much longer than they would have liked. That is agreed to by everyone, yes?

Therefore, I think we can simply be happy the issue resolved and they were able to have a family anyway. I hope we get to find out the name of their daughter soon.

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This!

Tatiana Maria said:

But again, under the 1943 testament, having children out of wedlock with a non-noble would not disqualify the parent from the succession.

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It's easy to say now we have the final judgment what could be done back then, but I believe the losing of his inheritance was so abhorrend, simply impossible for Gustav, probably enforced mentally, at least inbred in him by his parents, that he wouldn't marry Carina, no matter how big the love. And it truely was love, for all his maternal relations acted as if they were already married even though they weren't.

I am relatively new to this family and I apologise in advance for the question but why do some consider Gustav the heir to his grandfather when his own father Richard was still alive?

Congratulations to the couple on the birth of their daughter. Now waiting patiently for a photo and the baby's name.

crm2317 said:

I am relatively new to this family and I apologise in advance for the question but why do some consider Gustav the heir to his grandfather when his own father Richard was still alive?

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Possibly for the same reason that so many people claim that Gustav's grandfather wrote a racist inheritance clause about Aryan blood into his will, even though the full text of the will is available to read on public websites and it obviously includes no such thing. If you or anyone should ever find out what that reason is, please tell me.


It is technically true that Gustav was an heir (though not the first or only heir) to his grandfather. According to the system of reversionary succession employed by Gustav Albrecht in his last testament, each heir who is appointed through the will is an heir to the testator, not an heir to the prior heir. From the legal point of view, Richard inherited the estate from Gustav Albrecht and then, after Richard's death, Gustav inherited the estate from Gustav Albrecht (instead of the "normal" course of Richard inheriting from Gustav Albrecht and Gustav inheriting from Richard).

The difference in practice is that under this arrangement, Gustav's inheritance was regulated by the laws at the time of Gustav Albrecht's legal death in 1945, rather than the laws at the time of Richard's death in 2017. This was beneficial to Gustav in defeating Ludwig-Ferdinand's claim.