Engagement of Princess Maria Laura and William Isvy; 27 Dec 2021

[Stefan]

So, it's like maria-olivia said, the first Princess of Belgium to actually marry in the St Michael and St Gudula Cathedral.

Princess Charlotte and Archduke Maximilian of Austria married also in Brussels. But in which Church took their religious marriage place?.

 

[Marengo]

I searched the newspaper archives and the articles I found only refer to the royal palace of Brussels.

 

[Skippy]

Perhaps Princess Maria Laura is theoretically not the first if Princess Charlotte did marry there, but, like Marengo, I can't find anything about that and surely she must have had a religious ceremony.

So there is still a chance that "Laura" is the first

 

[Tatiana Maria]

For further details from the press conference, refer to the newly opened wedding thread:

Princess Maria Laura of Belgium and William Isvy: 10 Sept 2022

It's interesting that the mayor of Brussels took part in the press conference, considering how anonymous and low in the order of precedence Princess Maria Laura is. Was there anything similar for her brother Prince Amedeo?

 

[Stefan]

For further details from the press conference, refer to the newly opened wedding thread:

Princess Maria Laura of Belgium and William Isvy: 10 Sept 2022

It's interesting that the mayor of Brussels took part in the press conference, considering how anonymous and low in the order of precedence Princess Maria Laura is. Was there anything similar for her brother Prince Amedeo?

I guess that this is an indication that he will conduct the civil Ceremony. As far as i remember of Prince Amedeo there was no civil Ceremony as he married in Italy where no civil Ceremony is needed when one marries in a catholic Ceremony.

 

[Prinsara]

I can't quite believe that someone from such a fervidly Catholic family is marrying a non-Christian. I suppose if anyone had an issue with it, we'll never know?

Does this make Laura the first member of the BRF to marry someone who is Jewish?

 

[JR76]

I can't quite believe that someone from such a fervidly Catholic family is marrying a non-Christian. I suppose if anyone had an issue with it, we'll never know?

Does this make Laura the first member of the BRF to marry someone who is Jewish?

Although I can think of many marriages between European nobles and members of the Jewish faith or by Jewish descent I had to ask a few of my friends if they could think of any royal as prominent as Princess Maria Laura who had married a member of the Jewish faith. Elsa von Guttman had converted to Catholicism long before she married Prince Franz I of Liechtenstein and Diane Halfin's marriage to Prince Egon von Fürstenberg is far below William Isvy's coming marriage to Maria Laura on the royal pecking order.

 

[Prinsara]

Although I can think of many marriages between European nobles and members of the Jewish faith or by Jewish descent I had to ask a few of my friends if they could think of any royal as prominent as Princess Maria Laura who had married a member of the Jewish faith. Elsa von Guttman had converted to Catholicism long before she married Prince Franz I of Liechtenstein and Diane Halfin's marriage to Prince Egon von Fürstenberg is far below William Isvy's coming marriage to Maria Laura on the royal pecking order.

If you had to go through the rest of Europe, then I take it, yes, Laura is the first Belgian royal to marry someone who is Jewish.

I suppose this is a toss-up between her Opus Dei mother (Princess Astrid is a member, isn't she?) and Princess Michael's son Lord Frederick marrying Sophie Winkleman on the order of apparent unlikeliness.

 

[Mbruno]

It was confirmed today at a press conference given by the Mayor of Brussels and the spokesperson for the couple.


A summary from Nieuwsblad's royal correspondent Wim Dehandschutter (first shared by Stefan in the engagement thread):

"[CONFIRMED DATE] Belgian Princess Maria Laura will marry William Isvy on September 10, Brussels mayor @PhilippeClose and couple’s spokesman @HerveVerhoosel said in a press conference.

�� Civil marriage at Brussels town hall in the morning.
�� Private ceremony, only +/- 35 guests.
�� Witnesses: Laura’s sisters Luisa and Laetitia; William’s brother and sister.

�� Religious marriage at St Michael and St Gudula Cathedral, Brussels (2:30PM).
�� 500 guests, including Belgian royal family.
�� Catholic celebration with Jewish influences (William is Jewish)."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1560238445167083520

https://twitter.com/x/status/1560242466829340672

https://twitter.com/x/status/1560242700171055104

Media reports have further details from the press conference:

The civil wedding guests will be welcomed to City Hall by around two dozen police cadets. According to the spokesperson, "the couple plan on organizing the civil ceremony in an intimate circle. Only a small number of family members will be present."

The religious wedding will be officiated by the archbishop of Mechelen-Brussels. Per the spokesperson, "five hundred Belgian and foreign guests will be invited to the religious service, including all the members of the royal family". "The couple want songs to play an important role. Both Christian and Jewish songs will be performed."

Following the ceremonies, the parents of the couple will host private receptions in Brussels. "In addition to the parents, the sisters and brothers of the bridal couple and some good friends are assisting with organizing the celebration and receiving the guests."


Regarding the couple's choice of a Brussels wedding even though they live and work in London:

The spokesperson stated: "Even though they live in London, it is important to them to marry here in Belgium. The couple want to strengthen their connection to Brussels in this way. It is a symbolic choice. It's the perfect opportunity for Laura to show off the city of Brussels and our beautiful country to her in-laws, and also because Laura's parents, Princess Astrid and Prince Lorenz, were married here at the city hall on 22 September 1984."

The mayor added: "All Belgians also remember the marriage of Philippe and Mathilde at the city hall. When a member of the royal family marries here, it's always moving. It is going to be a joyous moment and a beautiful look for Brussels."


https://www.lesoir.be/460351/articl...laura-de-belgique-epousera-william-isvy-le-10
https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20220811_97563031
https://www.hln.be/royalty/prinses-...-intieme-kring-georganiseerd-worden~a67e7151/


Princess Astrid and later her two brothers also held their civil weddings at the City Hall of Brussels.

Previous religious weddings of the Royal Family at the St Michael and St Gudula Cathedral (Brussels Cathedral) include Prince Leopold and Princess Astrid (1926), Prince Albert and Princess Paola (1959), King Baudouin and Queen Fabiola (1960), Prince Philippe and Princess Mathilde (1999), and Prince Laurent and Princess Claire (2003).

Note that the wedding of Princess Astrid and Prince Lorenz did not take place there, as the cathedral was in the process of restoration from 1983 to 1999.

https://www.cathedralisbruxellensis.be/en/history/

Were past royal religious weddings likewise officiated by the archbishop of Brussels?

I didn't know it was possible to marry a non-Christian in a Catholic ceremony. I am curious to see what the ceremony will be like.

I learned from the documentary on Queen Astrid that was linked in another forum here that Astrid and Leopold got married in a Catholic ceremony, but the ceremony consisted only of the rite of marriage properly, without the celebration of the mass afterwards as usual in Catholic weddings. According to the documentary, that was because Astrid was still a Lutheran at the time. Since William is Jewish (in this case, a non-Christian, unlike Astrid), should we expect a shorter service as well?

I confess I am ignorant in the issue of interfaith marriages when celebrated by a Catholic minister.

 

[Prinsara]

To the best of my knowledge Mr. Isvy must have promised to raise any of their future children as Catholics. I am not sure what else you have to do to be married by the Church as a non-Catholic/non-Christian.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I am not sure what else you have to do to be married by the Church as a non-Catholic/non-Christian.

According to the website of the Catholic Church in Flanders:

As a general rule, the Catholic church will not recognize a marriage between a member of the church and a person who has not been baptized as a Christian, but church officials will grant exemptions from the rule when a "good and sound" reason exists.

To obtain an exemption and have their marriage recognized as valid by the Catholic church, the Catholic partner is required to declare that they are prepared to avoid losing their Catholic faith and will do all that they can to baptize and raise their children as Catholics. The unbaptized partner needs to declare that they are aware of the Catholic partner's promises, but they are not required to convert or make promises to the Catholic church.

Also as a general rule, the Catholic church will only recognize the marriage if it is officiated by a Catholic priest, but here again, church officials will grant exemptions if there is a good reason. If the couple are married by a Catholic priest, the ceremony can be customized for their situation.

See FAQs #2 and #17: https://www.kerknet.be/trouwen-voor-de-kerk/artikel/faq-–-veel-gestelde-vragen-over-het-huwelijk


I'm curious as to what regulations apply on William Isvy's side. I understand that different branches of Judaism have varying doctrines on the validity of marriages between Jews and non-Jews, but I am not sure what branch a Moroccan-French family (if it is only his paternal family which is Jewish) would be likely affiliated with.

For branches which recognize Jewish-non-Jewish marriages, I think there is no formal requirement for a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother to raise their children in the Jewish faith. Please correct me if I am wrong.

You're absolutely right. I meant a spouse of a princess (as I wrote earlier in the thread), and will correct the post.

Another correction: I also meant both house laws and succession laws, as Princess Maria Laura is only the first princess to marry while she is in the line of succession.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Mr. Isvy does not need to make a promise, but the princess would be required by her church to "do all that she can". See this post for information: https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...m-isvy-27-dec-2021-a-49168-7.html#post2484617

I didn't know it was possible to marry a non-Christian in a Catholic ceremony. I am curious to see what the ceremony will be like.

I learned from the documentary on Queen Astrid that was linked in another forum here that Astrid and Leopold got married in a Catholic ceremony, but the ceremony consisted only of the rite of marriage properly, without the celebration of the mass afterwards as usual in Catholic weddings. According to the documentary, that was because Astrid was still a Lutheran at the time. Since William is Jewish (in this case, a non-Christian, unlike Astrid), should we expect a shorter service as well?

I confess I am ignorant in the issue of interfaith marriages when celebrated by a Catholic minister.

So far I have not been able to find details of the liturgy used in Catholic weddings in Belgium, but apparently it may be adapted for interfaith couples.

The website of the US Catholic Church has extensive details of the order of its wedding service, but I am not sure how much of it is applicable to other countries. Apparently, the main difference between an American Catholic wedding between a Catholic and a non-Christian and the order of service for a Catholic's wedding to a non-Catholic Christian (which, as you said, would typically also not include a Mass) is that in the first case, there are more flexible options for shortening the ceremony.


I found it interesting that when explaining why the couple chose to marry in Belgium the spokesperson never referred to the old rule of marrying in the bride's hometown, even though it probably played a part in the decision (otherwise, why did her brother marry in Italy and not in Belgium even though he appears to have stronger links to Belgium than his sister does)?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Or the groom converses to roman-catholicism. That is also an option.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Or the groom converses to roman-catholicism. That is also an option.

It is, and many people who have married into royal families have converted because of the marriage, but would Mr. Isvy have chosen to incorporate Jewish songs in his religious wedding if he had converted or was planning to convert?

 

[Mbruno]

Or the groom converses to roman-catholicism. That is also an option.

I know some Jewish men who married Catholic or Protestant women. It is not so uncommon in the Americas in countries with sizable Jewish populations like the USA, Canada, Argentina, and Brazil. Normally what happens more often is the other way around, i.e. the bride is asked to convert to Judaism to guarantee that the children of the marriage are born Jewish (in fact, that is what happens in most cases I know). But I have seen couples too where neither the bride nor the groom convert and the children are raised in different faiths. An acquaitance of mine for example insisted that his son be raised Jewish for example (the boy had to convert himself since his mother was not Jewish), but his daughters were raised as Catholics. I think it is up to each couple to find the arrangement they are most comfortable with and which is acceptable to both of them.

Anyway, going back to Princess Maria Laura, she is not only a Princess of Belgium, but also an Archduchess of Austria-Este, hence a princess of the Austrian Imperial House (one of the bastions of Roman Catholic tradition in Europe). To me at least, the fact that she is marrying someone who is neither royalty nor nobility and, furthermore, is a Jew is a big deal (in a good sense in my opinion), which seems to prove that royals can indeed marry whoever they want nowadays.

 

[Biri]

would Mr. Isvy have chosen to incorporate Jewish songs in his religious wedding if he had converted or was planning to convert?

If those concrete songs don't tell that Messiah is still about to come, I see no problem

 

[Prinsara]

I found it interesting that when explaining why the couple chose to marry in Belgium the spokesperson never referred to the old rule of marrying in the bride's hometown, even though it probably played a part in the decision (otherwise, why did her brother marry in Italy and not in Belgium even though he appears to have stronger links to Belgium than his sister does)?

Perhaps what also played a part in marrying in Belgium is the fact that it is their civil marriage which will be legal, and the somewhat complicated religious ceremony is in a sense for show? It would have been a little difficult to explain why Princess Maria Laura had been married in a UK registry office or not by a priest. (Having multiple ceremonies is illegal in the UK.) And perhaps Mr. Isvy is not comfortable only being married by the RCC? Just a thought.

 

[Marengo]

Isn't it just an old custom for a couple to marry in the city/town where the parents of the bride are living? At least in the Benelux. Of course the last decades many couples have chosen to make different arrangements but it seems the most logical explanation to me.

The three younger van Vollenhoven princes all married in places where the parents of the bride were living. The same for the Duke of Parma. The Luxembourg RF made exceptions for the heirs but the others all married in the place that had connections to the brides parents. As for Belgium: Amedeo married in Rome, where the parents of Elisabetta were living and now M. Laura marries in Brussels where her parents are living.

 

[Prinsara]

I'm curious as to what regulations apply on William Isvy's side. I understand that different branches of Judaism have varying doctrines on the validity of marriages between Jews and non-Jews, but I am not sure what branch a Moroccan-French family (if it is only his paternal family which is Jewish) would be likely affiliated with.

For branches which recognize Jewish-non-Jewish marriages, I think there is no formal requirement for a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother to raise their children in the Jewish faith. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Just going off the top of my head, there is only one branch of (Ashkenazi) Judaism that recognizes intermarriage (Reform), and they do not have great traction in Europe.

There is also no requirement for children of a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father to be raised as Jewish; the children are simply recognized as Jewish — although only as children of the mother (even in Reform).

The Moroccan side of Mr. Isvy's family makes me curious as to whether his family are Sephardi Jews — unlike the European Ashkenazim and like the Muslims the Sephardim lived with, I believe that Sephardi Jews recognize patrilineal descent.

...Which would make things quite interesting.

Edit: And no, I'm wrong. Sephardim do have different practices and traditions about a few things, but also follow the matrilineal tradition. A few more bits of info about it: https://writingwithcolor.tumblr.com...040/patrilineal-jewish-girl-sephardic-culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism

 

[Somebody]

It is, and many people who have married into royal families have converted because of the marriage, but would Mr. Isvy have chosen to incorporate Jewish songs in his religious wedding if he had converted or was planning to convert?

I don't think Jewish songs are incompatible with the Roman Catholic church/doctrine. After all, Christianity shares the largest part of the bible with the Jews and Jesus himself was a Jew. Moreover, there are Christian Jews/Jewish Christians called 'Messianic Jews' (see also 'Messianic Judaism').

So, even if he is to convert, there would be good reasons to still incorporate some of his background by using the songs that he might have grown up with.

 

[Prinsara]

I don't think Jewish songs are incompatible with the Roman Catholic church/doctrine. After all, Christianity shares the largest part of the bible with the Jews and Jesus himself was a Jew. Moreover, there are Christian Jews/Jewish Christians called 'Messianic Jews' (see also 'Messianic Judaism').

So, even if he is to convert, there would be good reasons to still incorporate some of his background by using the songs that he might have grown up with.

I think it is unlikely that he would convert, or he probably would have done so before this wedding. (It would also probably have been announced if he was intending to, given whom he is marrying).

"Messianic Jews" are not recognized as Jewish believers by other Jews. It is not just a matter of "bringing your culture in to the wedding"; the two religions are still fundamentally incompatible, just as they were 2000 years ago.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Christianity is deeply and firmly rooted in judaism as its supposed "founder" himself was born, raised, educated, lived and died as a Jewish man.

And many believe the intention was not at all to establish a new religion but to reform the Jewish practice, totally dominated by foundational, liturgical and ritualistic rules set by Rabbinic Judaism.

When the groom adds ancient Jewish hymns to be sung in the Saints-Michel-et-Gudule, he is very much going back to the foundation of Christianity.

 

[Biri]

Christianity is deeply and firmly rooted in judaism as its supposed "founder" himself was born, raised, educated, lived and died as a Jewish man.

And many believe the intention was not at all to establish a new religion but to reform the Jewish practice, totally dominated by foundational, liturgical and ritualistic rules set by Rabbinic Judaism.

When the groom adds ancient Jewish hymns to be sung in the Saints-Michel-et-Gudule, he is very much going back to the foundation of Christianity.

Both founders in fact - Jesus Christ and Saint Paul the Apostle were Jewish.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Thanks. So in terms of religious law, would Sephardi Judaism be approximately the same as the Orthodox branch of Ashkenazi Judaism, specifically, interfaith marriages would not be recognized as valid?

In any event, it would seem that if one looks at it from a purely religious point of view, it would be more likely for members of his family to have an issue with the coming marriage (as it will be an invalid "marriage" in traditional readings of Jewish law) than hers. In practice, the couple's statement about Laura showing off Belgium to her in-laws and his parents and siblings' participation in the wedding imply that at least his immediate family are supporting it.

I think it is unlikely that he would convert, or he probably would have done so before this wedding. (It would also probably have been announced if he was intending to, given whom he is marrying).

I agree that if he had firm plans to convert, it would most likely have been mentioned when their spokesperson stated at the press conference that he is Jewish. But even if he had, I am not sure it would have been possible to formally convert in advance of the wedding as many denominations and religions require a period of study or other initiation activities for converts. (Does anyone know what the timeline would be for a non-Christian-to-Catholic conversion?)

It is also a possibility that, as with the late Queen Astrid or the Dutch Queen Máxima, he is keeping all options on the table. (Likewise with Maria Laura.)

 

[Prinsara]

And I'm sorry, but it really doesn't matter that the early Christians were Jewish, or what their intentions were. The two religions are incompatible for obvious, fundamental reasons, and have been for nearly two thousand years — and to state otherwise is rather disingenuous.

Please don't argue that there is no issue between Christianity and Judaism and they are quite harmonious, given the past millennium in Europe. Or the past century.

If Mr. Isvy wants something of himself at his church wedding by an archbishop to a Catholic princess, that's his prerogative — but it's very little, rather discordant, and not actually meant to be subsumed in the bride's religion and culture.

 

[Prinsara]

Thanks. So in terms of religious law, would Sephardi Judaism be approximately the same as the Orthodox branch of Ashkenazi Judaism, specifically, interfaith marriages would not be recognized as valid?

In any event, it would seem that if one looks at it from a purely religious point of view, it would be more likely for members of his family to have an issue with the coming marriage (as it will be an invalid "marriage" in traditional readings of Jewish law) than hers. In practice, the couple's statement about Laura showing off Belgium to her in-laws and his parents and siblings' participation in the wedding imply that at least his immediate family are supporting it.

Orthodox and Conservative branches; yes, and Sephardim as well — I think the only way this marriage would be considered religiously valid would be in the unlikely event Mr. Isvy's family practices Reform Judaism, and even then, you generally need to not get married in a cathedral by an archbishop, as well as have the intent to raise any children Jewish — so basically entirely contradictory to what we know of this wedding.

It does sound like both families are supportive, but I can only believe Maria Laura's ultracatholic and Hapsburg family had cause for some issues as well....

 

[Somebody]

And I'm sorry, but it really doesn't matter that the early Christians were Jewish, or what their intentions were. The two religions are incompatible for obvious, fundamental reasons, and have been for nearly two thousand years — and to state otherwise is rather disingenuous.

I fully agree there are fundamental differences, however, the fact that Messianic Judaism exists show that they are not incompatible to everyone. Although of course others have the right to question their views and might think differently.

Please don't argue that there is no issue between Christianity and Judaism and they are quite harmonious, given the past millennium in Europe. Or the past century.

Thanks for your perspective but please allow the others to share theirs as well.

History indeed shows that people of different religions have treated each other terribly - which unfortunately also happened between denominations (at least within Christianity (just look at Roman Catholics vs Protestants in Northern Ireland) but also within Islam (Sunnites vs Shiites) to name a few). Some groups have suffered far more than others, tragically, and that should never be forgotten.

However, that doesn't negate the fact that some religions have more in common with each other than others (for example, believing in one God vs a plethora of gods; believing in reincarnation vs eternal life after one life on earth etc).

If Mr. Isvy wants something of himself at his church wedding by an archbishop to a Catholic princess, that's his prerogative — but it's very little, rather discordant, and not actually meant to be subsumed in the bride's religion and culture.

From a Christian perspective, I don't think there is much reason not to incorporate aspects -it seems it will be music/songs- of the groom's background in the church service as there is only one -very fundamental- difference (it would be different if he for example was Hindu; there would be hardly anything these religions have in common). I can see how it might be different from a Jewish perspective.

N.B. Will leave it at this, not because I wouldn't want to discuss/share my perspective more elaborately if someone would be interested but to avoid derailing this thread.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

It is worth remembering that the original context of the compatibility discussion was about a hypothetical Catholic who had converted from Judaism and whether his musical choices might reflect his former religion.

As the real-life, interfaith couple chose to have their spokesman make the announcement about having both Christian and Jewish songs performed at the religious wedding, I don't think it would be off topic to discuss the possible significance of their choice. As someone without any familiarity with either Christian or Jewish wedding songs, I would be interested in others' thoughts on what pieces might be chosen and how the mixture of music might be viewed from Catholic, Jewish, royal or other perspectives.

 

[Prinsara]

I don't have any songs that are springing to mind, but now I wonder if we'll get a glass broken somewhere. It doesn't contradict anything, but I would be stunned if it happened at the cathedral.

 

[Mbruno]

It is worth remembering that the original context of the compatibility discussion was about a hypothetical Catholic who had converted from Judaism and whether his musical choices might reflect his former religion.

As the real-life, interfaith couple chose to have their spokesman make the announcement about having both Christian and Jewish songs performed at the religious wedding, I don't think it would be off topic to discuss the possible significance of their choice. As someone without any familiarity with either Christian or Jewish wedding songs, I would be interested in others' thoughts on what pieces might be chosen and how the mixture of music might be viewed from Catholic, Jewish, royal or other perspectives.

A Psalm from King David would obviously be both a Christian and a Jewish song. They might sing it in Hebrew for example.

The first reading (or "first lesson" as Anglicans would say) in a Catholic wedding often comes from the Song of Songs (or Canticle of Canticles) , which is also part of the Hebrew Bible (? שִׁיר הַשִּׁירִים ). They could sing it in Hebrew too, I don't know.

I was thinking the Archbishop could give the couple the Blessing of Aaron (Numbers 6:22-27), but I am not sure if that would be appropriate as I think that Jews cannot give or receive it after the destruction of the Temple and the end of the priestly order (one of the Jewish members can correct me if I am wrong, but that is what I vaguely remember being taught by the Jesuits).