Russian Imperial and Noble Jewels

[Duc_et_Pair]

I've read that the Tsar and his family withdrew, for patriotic reasons, all moneys, gold etc that was deposited in the Bank of England and elsewhere, and put them into Russian banks at the beginning of the First World War.

There was certainly nothing there in British banks for Marie, the Dowager Empress, though she was of course helped by her sister Queen Alexandra and brother the King of Denmark. However her daughter existed on a small pension given by George V and VI when she remained in England. Queen Mary bought many Russian treasures, Faberge etc that had once belonged to the Romanovs.

So, no I think there is little left. A few things might have been hidden. I believe someone found a box of Romanov trinkets a few years ago that had been left in a bank, but I think anything of huge value is long gone.

Indeed, and as I wrote earlier in in this thread: nothing so ostentatious as Russian billionaires. So every hidden diamond can easily sufrace again, no problem in today's Russia. When these jewels still not re-surface in 2017, we way assume these are lost.

I feel people underestimate the disastrous effect of 100 years of revolution, exile, famine, prosecution, oppression, two world wars, the terrors of Stalinism and Nazism as well communist rule.

Note that also the former royal and noble familis in the East of Europe suffered the same fate. The "lucky ones" were the aristocrats in the western part of Germany, in Austria, in Italy, in France, etc.

 

[Spheno]

I'm afraid I don't agree with a few points you have raised. The Royal Collection is not the property of the State but the Crown - slightly different. Her Majesty's jewellery is not part of the Royal Collection.

Agree..........

 

[Pranter]

Indeed, and as I wrote earlier in in this thread: nothing so ostentatious as Russian billionaires. So every hidden diamond can easily sufrace again, no problem in today's Russia. When these jewels still not re-surface in 2017, we way assume these are lost.

I feel people underestimate the disastrous effect of 100 years of revolution, exile, famine, prosecution, oppression, two world wars, the terrors of Stalinism and Nazism as well communist rule.

Note that also the former royal and noble familis in the East of Europe suffered the same fate. The "lucky ones" were the aristocrats in the western part of Germany, in Austria, in Italy, in France, etc.

ITA. WWI, WWII and dissolution of monarchies all over Europe/Central Asia.

It's pretty mind boggling to think about about it. The immense wealth/power that changed hands.


LaRae

 

[Kitty1224]

So does anyone know the answer if a lot of Marie, Alexandra Duchess Vladimir, Yusupov and the Imperial Royal Family jewels, art collection and antiques still missing or hidden today?

 

[Marc23]

From few years ago:

https://www.thelocal.se/20090828/21744

Jewels were distributed to the descendants of Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna elder and some of them found it's way to various auction houses.

 

[Tilia C.]

The thread Is there still ALOT of Romanov treasures that has not been found yet? has been merged with this thread because it concerns the same topic of Russian Imperial Jewels.

 

[Tilia C.]

So does anyone know the answer if a lot of Marie, Alexandra Duchess Vladimir, Yusupov and the Imperial Royal Family jewels, art collection and antiques still missing or hidden today?

No, of course nobody here knows the definite answers. There's a lot of speculation, of course. There have been generations of treasure hunters trying to get their hands of some of the Romanov riches, there are still people who hope to be the ones that find barrels stuffed with Romanov jewels in some corner of Siberia. But for all that we know, this barrels of jewels may just be a myth.

 

[Kitty1224]

No, of course nobody here knows the definite answers. There's a lot of speculation, of course. There have been generations of treasure hunters trying to get their hands of some of the Romanov riches, there are still people who hope to be the ones that find barrels stuffed with Romanov jewels in some corner of Siberia. But for all that we know, this barrels of jewels may just be a myth.

Well I certainly believe it. Also I read that some jars from Tobolsk that the Imperial Family were imprisoned and killed the Bolsheviks found the jars but apparently didn't find all of the jars full of jewels.
So you are saying that there is a possibility that a lot of the Imperial family, Empress Marie, Tsarina Alexandra, Grand Duchess Valdimir and the Yusupov's family jewelry, art paintings and antiques as of today can still be hidden or missing?

 

[JR76]

Its impossible to know where all the jewels are today. Id say most were broken up by citizens that found them & then traded them in one stone at a time in at special stores during the 20s & 30s for luxuries not available at the normal stores. These stores were set up by the governement to get in things they could sell abroad. I also read how one morganatic descendant of a grand duke got rid of most of the little that her family had saved because it would be to dangerous if the authorities found out who she was. I cant remember much about her other than that she at one time in her life performed with her motorbike.

 

[Kitty1224]

Its impossible to know where all the jewels are today. Id say most were broken up by citizens that found them & then traded them in one stone at a time in at special stores during the 20s & 30s for luxuries not available at the normal stores. These stores were set up by the governement to get in things they could sell abroad. I also read how one morganatic descendant of a grand duke got rid of most of the little that her family had saved because it would be to dangerous if the authorities found out who she was. I cant remember much about her other than that she at one time in her life performed with her motorbike.

But the Romanovs and the relatives like Vladimir and Yusupov's had too many jewels. They were envied by other royals from other countries. The world is big. I believe a lot are still around.

 

[AristoCat]

Thing is, that the Russian nobles and royals are among the most secretive on the planet. You almost never knowingly encounter them and they are very labyrinthine about where they meet and how they communicate.

 

[Lee-Z]

But the Romanovs and the relatives like Vladimir and Yusupov's had too many jewels. They were envied by other royals from other countries. The world is big. I believe a lot are still around.

You are free to believe this, but it is very very difficult (if not impossible) to ever prove it

 

[Kitty1224]

You are free to believe this, but it is very very difficult (if not impossible) to ever prove it

Well just the same as you that you do not know for sure if nothing is left. Do you know how many hidden treasures India has? India was once the richest country in the world.

 

[JR76]

But the Romanovs and the relatives like Vladimir and Yusupov's had too many jewels. They were envied by other royals from other countries. The world is big. I believe a lot are still around.

Im not saying theres not stuff hidden away. History is full of treasures buried at times of crisis by someone who didnt come back to claim it. What Im saying is that the jewels that was found during the revolution in most cases wasnt sold as whole but instead broken up and later sold stone by stone making it impossible to trace today.

 

[Kitty1224]

Im not saying theres not suff hidden away. History is full of treasures buried at times of crisis by someone who didnt come back to claim it. What Im saying is that the jewels that was found during the revolution in most cases wasnt sold as whole but instead broken up and later sold stone by stone making it impossible to trace today.

I know they found a lot of them in saying that we still do not know how many treasures they really had and I believe a lot are still hidden to this day with the Imperial family, Empress Marie Feodorvna, Tsarnia Alexandra, and the Yusupov family.

 

[Lee-Z]

I know they found a lot of them in saying that we still do not know how many treasures they really had and I believe a lot are still hidden to this day with the Imperial family, Empress Marie Feodorvna, Tsarnia Alexandra, and the Yusupov family.

Thing is, the next step following that would be guessing to where the treasures actually are and as at this moment there are no facts that would be speculation, and speculation is frowned upon on these forums...

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[.....] and I believe a lot are still hidden to this day with the Imperial family, Empress Marie Feodorvna, Tsarnia Alexandra, and the Yusupov family.

Are you aware that "the imperial family" is scattered over the world and -so to see- not living in great wealth?

Then Tsarina Alexandra: she and her daughters were evacuated since August 1917 until their execution in July 1918. They were placed under a strict regime. Everything was taken away, except some personal belongings. After the assassination the murderers found the diamonds sewn into the dresses and all was looted.

Then Tsarina Maria Feodorovna: she went in exile to her homeland Danmark. She had little resources and relied on help and goodwill from her family. After a stay at Amalienborg, she lived at a house near Copenhagen, where she died, 10 years after the murder on her son the Tsar.

Then the Yusupov family. The male agnatic line of the princely House of Yusupov actually became extinct in 1939 with the death of the last Yusupov: Princess Zinaida Nikolayevna Yusupova. With permission of the Tsar, Zinaida's son Count Felix Felixovich Sumarokov-Elston (1887-1967) was allowed to add the title Prince Yusupov to his name. (He is the one who had a hand in the murder of Rasputin).

Like so many Russian emigrés also Prince Yusupov continued living according the highest standards. This in combination with bad business, the Wall Street Crash in 1929, World War II and poor financial management, seriously exhausted the family fortune.

When Prince Yusupov died in 1967 the bulk of what was left from his belongings went to his only child, the Countess Nikolai Dmitrievich Sheremetev née Princess Irina Felixovna Yusupova, Countess Sumarkova-Elston (1915-1983). Her daughter (Felix Yusupov's granddaughter) is still alive: Mrs Ilias Sfiris née Countess Xenia Nikolaevna Sheremeteva (1942). She and her family enjoy a private life out of the limelights in Athens, Greece.

For so far there is little ground to believe that fabulous treasures are still somewhere and waiting to resurface again. Every descendant of every Russian noble family is free to enter Russia. Some have reclaimed former properties. If there were really treasures hidden we may assume this has been passed to the children and the grandchildren: "In the sacristy of the family-chapel, search for the icon of the Holy Virgin of Smolensk, go three brickstones down, and two left from that icon"...

 

[Kitty1224]

Are you aware that "the imperial family" is scattered over the world and -so to see- not living in great wealth?

Then Tsarina Alexandra: she and her daughters were evacuated since August 1917 until their execution in July 2018. They were placed under a strict regime. Everything was taken away, except some personal belongings. After the assassination the murderers found the diamonds sewn into the dresses and all was looted.

Then Tsarina Maria Feodorovna: she went in exile to her homeland Danmark. She had little resources and relied on help and goodwill from her family. After a stay at Amalienborg, she lived at a house near Copenhagen, where she died, 10 years after the murder on her son the Tsar.

Then the Yusupov family. The male agnatic line of the princely House of Yusupov actually became extinct in 1939 with the death of the last Yusupov: Princess Zinaida Nikolayevna Yusupova. With permission of the Tsar, Zinaida's son Count Felix Felixovich Sumarokov-Elston (1887-1967) was allowed to add the title Prince Yusupov to his name. (He is the one who had a hand in the murder of Rasputin).

Like so many Russian emigrés also Prince Yusupov continued living according the highest standards. This in combination with bad business, the Wall Street Crash in 1929, World War II and poor financial management, seriously exhausted the family fortune.

When Prince Yusupov died in 1967 the bulk of what was left from his belongings went to his only child, the Countess Nikolai Dmitrievich Sheremetev née Princess Irina Felixovna Yusupova, Countess Sumarkova-Elston (1915-1983). Her daughter (Felix Yusupov's granddaughter) is still alive: Mrs Ilias Sfiris née Countess Xenia Nikolaevna Sheremeteva (1942). She and her family enjoy a private life out of the limelights in Athens, Greece.

For so far there is little ground to believe that fabulous treasures are still somewhere and waiting to resurface again. Every descendant of every Russian noble family is free to enter Russia. Some have reclaimed former properties. If there were really treasures hidden we may assume this has been passed to the children and the grandchildren: "In the sacristy of the family-chapel, search for the icon of the Holy Virgin of Smolensk, go three brickstones down, and two left from that icon"...

It seems to me that you don't believe that those people I've listed hid a lot of their treasures(jewels, art paintings and antiques) when the revolution was happening. There is still a lot of treasures from Indian royalty still waiting to be found in India. Same with Russia. God is the truth and I believe in God not man that a lot of hidden treasures still waiting to be found by the Imperial family, Empress Marie, Vladimir, and Yusupovs.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...] a lot of hidden treasures still waiting to be found by the Imperial family, Empress Marie, Vladimir, and Yusupovs.

You are aware that none of the persons you name are alive anymore at all? How can they reclaim when they are dead and buried et al???? Then you name Tsarina Maria Feodorovna and the Yusupovs. Are you aware that the only daughter of this Tsarina Maria was Irina and actually married Felix Yusupov? So eventual jewels from Tsarina Maria's side should now also be with Irina's granddaughter in Athens, Greece.

Then Grand-Prince Vladimir. Because of the family’s hasty flight, they had left most of their jewels hidden away in a secret vault at their house in St Petersburg. They managed to get the jewels smuggled out of Russia. The Grand-Princess Vladimir then distributed her jewels, leaving the most to her only daughter Princess Nicholas of Greece née Elena Vladimirova Romanova.
Elena:
- her daughter Olga's descendants are in the Serbian royal family
- her daughter Elizabeth's descendants are in the family Toerring-Jettenbach
- her daughter Marina's descendants are in the British royal family (the Kents)

The exile meant that meant money was hard to come by so over the years Princess Nicholas sold various pieces of jewellery from her personal collection to support her family and numerous charities.

Then maybe Vladimir's jewels are still with Elena's three brothers? Let us see:
- Vladimir: his descendant is today's assumed head of the Romanovs, Maria Vladimirovna Romanova.
- Boris: outlived an illegitimate son, his line is extinct
- Andrei: died unmarried and suffered major financial strain, his line is extinct

So simply deducting part by part and studying the fate of the descendants you can see that from the supposed fortune and wealth little is left. Maria Vladimirovna Romanova, the current assumed head of the Russian Imperial House, visits Russia several times a year, and that for 25 years. Continuously trying to keep the Romanov heritage visible and alive. If there really were treasures hidden, and she would know it, she would have found it.

 

[Lee-Z]

God is the truth and I believe in God not man that a lot of hidden treasures still waiting to be found by the Imperial family, Empress Marie, Vladimir, and Yusupovs.

As i don't have a close connection to a God myself, i'm bowing out of this discussion, but i can't help but wondering: if you have the word of your God as the truth, why bother asking the question on an internet forum of mere mortals...

 

[Kitty1224]

You are aware that none of the persons you name are alive anymore at all? How can they reclaim when they are dead and buried et al???? Then you name Tsarina Maria Feodorovna and the Yusupovs. Are you aware that the only daughter of this Tsarina Maria was Irina and actually married Felix Yusupov? So eventual jewels from Tsarina Maria's side should now also be with Irina's granddaughter in Athens, Greece.

Then Grand-Prince Vladimir. Because of the family’s hasty flight, they had left most of their jewels hidden away in a secret vault at their house in St Petersburg. They managed to get the jewels smuggled out of Russia. The Grand-Princess Vladimir then distributed her jewels, leaving the most to her only daughter Princess Nicholas of Greece née Elena Vladimirova Romanova.
Elena:
- her daughter Olga's descendants are in the Serbian royal family
- her daughter Elizabeth's descedants are in the family Toerring-Jettenbach
- her daughter Marina's descendants are in the British royal family (the Kents)

The exile meant that meant money was hard to come by so over the years Princess Nicholas sold various pieces of jewellery from her personal collection to support her family and numerous charities.

Then maybe Vladimir's jewels are still with Elena's three brothers? Let us see:
- Vladimir: his descendant is today's assumed head of the Romanovs, Maria Vladimirovna Romanova.
- Boris: outlived an illegitimate son, his line is extinct
- Andrei: died unmarried and suffered major financial strain, his line is extinct

So simply deducting part by part and studying the fate of the descendants you can see that from the supposed fortune and wealth little is left. Maria Vladimirovna Romanova, the current assmed head of the Russian Imperial House, visits Russia serveral times a year, and that for 25 years. Continuously trying to keep the Romanov heritage visible and alive. If there really were treasures hidden, and she would know it, she would have found it.

Because they could have hid a lot more stuff we do not know about to this day.

 

[Muhler]

----

For so far there is little ground to believe that fabulous treasures are still somewhere and waiting to resurface again. Every descendant of every Russian noble family is free to enter Russia. Some have reclaimed former properties. If there were really treasures hidden we may assume this has been passed to the children and the grandchildren: "In the sacristy of the family-chapel, search for the icon of the Holy Virgin of Smolensk, go three brickstones down, and two left from that icon"...

Unless they died before they could pass on their knowledge... Which must inevitably have happen a number of times.
That includes a number of people who "appropriated" various items and hid them away somewhere.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

This picture says enough: picture

Family after family has been looted from jewels, artworks, inventories, real estate, carriages, cars, investments, gold, name it all. The looting was systematic and jewels were broken up in pieces, shattered all around the world, to finance the disastrous communist revolution and the soon bankrupt Russian state.

Everyone has the right on his or her dream. Maybe somewhere under a tree in Dnjepropetrovsk a cassette with jewels has been buried. Possible. We do not know. What we do know is that the communists systematically searched for everything of value and confiscated it "in name of the people". The lucky ones whom escaped Russia soon were enforced to sell valuables. They had nothing. No profession, no source of income, nothing. Only their fortune. And that fortune soon was melting away as snow for the sun, often with the 1929 Wall Street Crash as final axe.

 

[JR76]

As someone pointed out earlier during the 30 years following the revolution the former Russian empire was in constant turmoil with civil war, famine, mass killings, persecution, population transfers, world wars etc... Millions died, all the imperial palaces in & around St Petersburg/Leningrad were destroyed or severly damaged during WWII. Added to that many noble residences were torn down to provide building material for the general population. For anything to survive that would be a small miracle and to my knowledge the only Romanov artifacts rediscovered were the knickknacks belonging to Grand Duchess Vladimir found at the British embassy in Stockholm a few years ago.

 

[Kitty1224]

As someone pointed out earlier during the 30 years following the revolution the former Russian empire was in constant turmoil with civil war, famine, mass killings, persecution, population transfers, world wars etc... Millions died, all the imperial palaces in & around St Petersburg/Leningrad were destroyed or severly damaged during WWII. Added to that many noble residences were torn down to provide building material for the general population. For anything to survive that would be a small miracle and to my knowledge the only Romanov artifacts rediscovered were the knickknacks belonging to Grand Duchess Vladimir found at the British embassy in Stockholm a few years ago.

I think you will be shocked to learn there is still a lot missing as of today and hidden as well.

 

[wyevale]

I would recommend reading 'Former People': The Destruction of the Russian Aristocracy
by Douglas Smith for an understanding of the really comprehensive nature of the despoiliation and expropriation of property by the Bolsheviks, as well as the physical extirpation of the Aristocracy as a 'class'.
It is undeniably distressing to read, but riveting nonetheless..

 

[Kitty1224]

I would recommend reading 'Former People': The Destruction of the Russian Aristocracy
by Douglas Smith for an understanding of the really comprehensive nature of the despoiliation and expropriation of property by the Bolsheviks, as well as the physical extirpation of the Aristocracy as a 'class'.
It is undeniably distressing to read, but riveting nonetheless..

Anything is possible. The Bolsheviks didn't find EVERYTHING!

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I think you will be shocked to learn there is still a lot missing as of today and hidden as well.

Everyone has the right on his/her own fairytale. For so far the evidence for the contrary has been so shockingly overwhelming, documented with so many photos, inventories, records. Every ruble which was "earned" by this systematic looting went to the State, every snippet can be traced in the archives.

For your theory that there still is a lot hidden you have no proof except wishful thinking. The unbelievable campaign to destroy all what was valuable is described in several books:

History's Greatest Heist (picture)
The looting of Russia by the Bolsheviks
Sean McMeekin

Treasures Into Tractors (picture)
The selling of Russia's Cultural Heritage
Anne Odom and Wendy R. Salmond

The Selling Of Russia (picture)
Soviet trade in nationalized art
Natalya Semyonova and Nicolas V. Iljine

and -the saddest-

Former People (picture)
The final days of the Russian aristocracy
Douglas Smith

 

[Spheno]

It remains me Kisa Vorobyaninov and Ostap Bender with their obsession to find Vorobyaninov's jewelry, hidden from the Bolsheviks in one of the twelve chairs from the family’s dining room set. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Chairs

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Anything is possible. The Bolsheviks didn't find EVERYTHING!

Oh dear... any arisiocrat, or peasant, or serf near any noble house whom felt in the hands of the Secret Police (the predecessor of the KGB) would shout all and everything out under the unimagineable cruel tortures. And the terror would not stop until the Secret Police was sure all has been revealed.

And maybe the nobles thought their treasures were safe in churches, guarded by the Holy Virgin? Forget it. The Secret Police was the principal agency responsible for the detection, arrest, and liquidation of the aristocracy, the Russian-Orthodox Church, the bourgeoisie, anarchists and other dissident factions in the early Soviet Union. Castles, palaces, churches, monasteries, plenty of footage of the Soviets destroying them, one by one.

Maybe a babushka somewhere on a flat three-high in Tsarkoye Selo has a broche in a drawer. Okay. For the rest, we can trust on the Soviets: when they wanted to destroy, they destroyed.